#88591 - 10/26/0906:55 PMFor lack of an appropriate place ...
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
I want to be clear that this is not an attempt to get into a debate about conservatism vs. liberalism. If you guys want to do that, have at it. I just wanted to share a very interesting comment I saw in another discussion group. The topic asks the question why are people so upset about liberalism. Many of the forum participants are not from the United States, and even a few who do live in America, haven't figured out all the fuss. I've only read comments from 1 of 3 pages, but so far, most of those responding either have no clue about these terms, are extremists (alarmists?) from the right who support the notion that to be liberal is to be basically anything unrighteous, or are giving technical, historical explanations of the terms. Now that I'm done with the fanfare, here's the concerto. I bolded the parts I think everybody needs to heed.
The term liberal, as used by the right, especially talk radio, is intentionally vague. The demagogues who rail against "the liberals"want it to mean anybody opposed to their side. If they aren't with us they are against us. In the process they intentionally distort the intentions of the left to rile up their following, playing up on all their collective fears and prejudices. They label any action by the government on behalf of its citizens as "Communism" because that has a connotation of totalitarianism. People are scared off by "Big government" so if you ask people, "are you against big government" you get a resounding yes. But if you ask them if they like medicare or social security or the VA (all the very epitome of big government) you get an even more resounding "absolutely" The most radical conservatives are also not the norm, but they are the voice of the right. I hear a lot more lecturing from them than I ever do from liberals. The important thing is to separate out the noise makers from the populace. This is true on both sides, but right now, the extremists on the right have control of most of the media (no matter what you still hear about the media being liberal, it is conservatives who own most of it) and so they distort what conservatives are all about by their actions and what liberals are about by their words.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
For me, the term liberal is very clear. In both Canada, and the United States they tend to (and remember, I'm talking about a trend here -- and therefore, say tend to) believe the following things:
1. They are more against war and military spending than conservatives. 2. They favor recognizing alternate lifestyles as legal relationships more than conservatives. 3. They are interested in putting laws in place that tend to engineer society around their values, which are different from the status quo, than conservatives. 4. They tend to be more in favor of government social programs like health care, than conservatives. 5. They are more in favor of gun control that most conservatives. 6. They tend to want greater controls on big business and prefer to see more power, from a business standpoint, invested in the workers and consumers. 7. They tend to be more open to immigration policies which change the current ethnic balance of their nation than conservatives. 8. Compared to conservatives, they tend to favor personal moral philsophies to values disseminated by organized religion. They often try to pass laws which minimize the influence of Churches and traditional Christianity, such as outlawing prayers in schools, displays of the Bible in public, etcetera, moreso than conservatives. 9. They seek to eleveate the status of women, disabled people, and minorities in society more than conservatives. 10. They are more willing to sacrifice individual freedoms for laws that promote what they feel is the common social, "good", than conservatives. 11. They tend to want to tax a wide variety of activities to fund their programs than conservatives. 12. They are more willing to control and influence markets through legislation than conservatives, and often put in place a wider range of consumer protection laws. 13. Then tend to be more willing to use the elementary and secondary school systems to teach society values that conservatives would rather place in the hands of parents. 14. They are more interested in protecting the environment than conservatives. 15. They are more willing to offer protection to people convicted of crimes, than to protecting victims, than conservatives.
Now, before anyone goes saying -- "I'm liberal and that's not me", recognize I'm speaking in trends here on issues that I've seen debated hotly over the years.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
bwardmusic - that is an excellent summary on the differences. Very accurate I might add.
I would say Fox News is the only TV network that leans more conservative than liberal yet probably presents more of the opposing view than the other networks (if that makes sense). Not sure how anyone could deny that ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC or CNN don't lean heavily on the liberal side. So that seems like a big imbalance for the conservative TV voice. Newspapers around the country follow the lead of the very liberal NY Times. I do not have statistics but from data have read in the past, newspapers (as most journalists) are vast majority liberal leaning. Some do a pretty good job presenting both views. Wall Street Jounal is the only paper that is clearly conservative leaning.
On the talk radio circuit, liberal radio seems to always fail. It is my opnion that a large reason for this is that many liberals tend to view the USA in a very negative light. That the USA and what it stands for is evil and is the true source of the world's problems. This type of constant negativity combined with the squashing of core traditional values we once adhered to 30-40 years ago does not go over very well with Americans.
#88598 - 10/27/0911:48 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
DaveS
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Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
That is a rather good comparison of the two sides. I would take issue with number eight though, only because it makes it sound so black and white. If you are a liberal then you are or should be anti church. In fact there are parts of both factions in most religions. So it becomes a little hazy when you attempt to bring in the question of religion. I was raised a Methodist which by most accounts is a fairly liberal thinking faith, but a large enough one to have a conservative element to its ranks as well. Even our seminaries are broad reaching in teaching.
Brings religion and politics together does tend to make for some strange bedfellows at times.
From a fiscal standpoint I would say Regan was the last.
The deficit nearly tripled during the Reagan presidency, partly due to tax cuts and increases in defense spending (e.g., Star Wars missile shield). He inherited a $995 billion National Debt in 1981, and by the end of his second term, it had risen to $2.9 Trillion, even though he raised taxes twice.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Jeez....you will argue about anything won't you.
I recall how the great Jimmy Carter gutted the military and left the economy in complete shambles upon his departure. The Prime Rate was over 15% with staggering inflation levels.
(from Wikipedia) According to a 1996 study from the libertarian think tank Cato Institute:
On 8 of the 10 key economic variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years.
Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency.
The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s.
The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years.
#88606 - 10/27/0905:52 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
jazzwriter
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Steve, regarding your first comment in this thread, I ask that unless you know people personally and can attest to their political leanings, please do not say "most journalists" do anything.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Sorry Woody. I should have been more specific or provided some back-up. Nowadays I think there are many liberal journalists labeling theselves as moderates for obvious reasons of credibility. Interesting read here.
#88610 - 10/27/0909:28 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
jazzwriter
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Interesting read, indeed. But again, skepticism is in order. How many were surveyed? 222 - out of thousands. Not a representative sample. And what does "at national outlets" mean? Vague at best, misleading at worst. What questions were asked? Phrasing counts for a lot. I have known reporters to try to manipulate a certain response by phrasing. There's no reason to believe a surveyor would not employ the same tactic if the purpose of the survey is to validate preconceptions. Just look at the lead sentence of the story: "confirmed the obvious." And, of course, let's not overlook the involvement of Fox News Channel's Brit Hume in highlighting the findings. If you look for a liberal, you will find a liberal. And let's say for the sake of argument that the questions were fair and balanced - did I ever share with you the story of the feuding neighbors? - and that the results as reported accurately reflect the answers given. In this day of divisive politics, compounded by the nastiness of those on the right as they relentlessly attack the media, aided and abetted by Fox, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a person who actually is a moderate would claim to be liberal - if only to say, "I'm not one of THEM." I believe most people who aren't politicians or talk show hosts don't give a hoot who's liberal and who's conservative. Performance matters more than ideology. So the only people who gain anything by such a survey are the conservatives who want data to back them up when they say, "I told you so!"
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
I'm not deeply familiar with the Pew Center that did the research in the article, but reading their mission, how they are funded (from a trust, not some right-wing group), as well as the background of their Research Director -- the sources seems non-partisan and credible.
If you look through their site, they cite all the right things -- random sampling, error margin estimations, etcetera -- as part of their research methodology.
Also, the conclusions in the article seem to be supported by other surveys, one with an even bigger sample size -- all pointing to a similar conclusion.
Here's an interesting Pew research report that seeks to relate one's political leanings with how accurate one believes the press to be. They also mention the perception of Fox by people with different political leanings:
An excerpt: When a person or group from the national level on down to the local level tries to dismiss, or spin facts because they do not support their particular agenda, then Americans are unable to make an informed decision about issues that affect them. As a result, Americans are less free.
Likewise, when a political party and/or its mouthpieces dismiss legitimate media doing its job as “liberal” or “mainstream,” it is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate the public and misdirect the unwanted attention their politician or agenda may be getting at the time.
It’s a basic bait-and-switch tactic, calculated to intentionally flood people with so much pseudo-information in the context of real news that it leaves many confused and exhausted and not knowing who or what to believe. Or worse, not caring at all.
Sure, there have been people in the news business who’ve gone wildly astray. At the same time, there have been those in other professions — political, law enforcement, business, clergy, teaching, real estate, banking, medical and the military — who’ve also gone to the dark side.
But as a rule, we still look to, and hold accountable, these professionals, and we expect them to do their jobs competently and honestly and to the best of their ability. The author is an unabashed liberal, supporter of Obama, basher of Bush. The article is a response to criticism from municipal government that the story he refers to was slanted. Fact: Osso, the guy mentioned in the article, said in his report to City Council that the city has a revenue shortfall of $2.7 million. Neither he nor the story said the city was in debt. It's in the black. For the first time in years, the city hasn't had to borrow money. However, collections are behind, mostly because of a new billing system with the water department. People are paying, but because through 10 months, there has been uncertainty in usage rates, many have paid less than they actually owe. The reason for the criticism? The mayor, a liberal Democrat, wanted to paint a rosy picture. If being a liberal influences "most" journalists to slant their coverage, Cross' column wouldn't be necessary. His being "in the tank" with the "current administration" would have prevented the revenue shortfall from being mentioned.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#88798 - 11/12/0908:04 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
Kat
Musical Technologist
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
For the record, I'm not pro-CNN, anti-FOX news.
What we see and watch affects our opinions and how we react to sensitive subjects - like healthcare, immigration, homeland security - and we interpret,based upon whether we are liberal, independent or conservative.
But did you see Jon Stewart point out the misleading video on Hannity's show?
Sean Hannity took time Wednesday night to say that Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" was correct and Fox News did air portions of the wrong protest. Hannity said that it was an "inadvertent mistake but a mistake nonetheless" and apologized..
Yes, apology accepted - but this is more Rupert Murdoch tabloid crap. It's a blatant manipulation of images to draw attention to a protest over health care.
This is the difference between reporting the news and news personalities having a show.
Dan Rather resigned because a producer fabricated documents, but Murdoch seems to encourage it at FOX.
(CBS) Four CBS News employees, including three executives, have been ousted for their role in preparing and reporting a disputed story about President Bush’s National Guard service.
The action was prompted by the report of an independent panel that concluded that CBS News failed to follow basic journalistic principles in the preparation and reporting of the piece. The panel also said CBS News had compounded that failure with a “rigid and blind” defense of the 60 Minutes Wednesday report.
Asked to resign were Senior Vice President Betsy West, who supervised CBS News primetime programs; 60 Minutes Wednesday Executive Producer Josh Howard; and Howard’s deputy, Senior Broadcast Producer Mary Murphy. The producer of the piece, Mary Mapes, was terminated.
“We deeply regret the disservice this flawed 60 Minutes Wednesday report did to the American public, which has a right to count on CBS News for fairness and accuracy,” said CBS Chairman Leslie Moonves.
The panel said a "myopic zeal" to be the first news organization to broadcast a groundbreaking story about Mr. Bush’s National Guard service was a key factor in explaining why CBS News had produced a story that was neither fair nor accurate and did not meet the organization’s internal standards.
The report said at least four factors that some observers described as a journalistic “Perfect Storm” had contributed to the decision to broadcast a piece that was seriously flawed.
"The combination of a new 60 Minutes Wednesday management team, great deference given to a highly respected producer and the network’s news anchor, competitive pressures, and a zealous belief in the truth of the segment seem to have led many to disregard some fundamental journalistic principles," the report said.
Reaction to the investigation was mixed. White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the administration appreciated CBS' steps to hold people accountable. Conservative pundit Rush Limbaugh insisted the network "had an axe to grind" with President Bush. Washington Post media critic Howard Kurtz said it would take the network a long time to get over "a high-profile blunder."
The piece was aired during a tight and hotly contested presidential race between Mr. Bush and Democratic challenger Sen. John Kerry. The timing of the story prompted charges of political bias against CBS News.
While the panel found that some actions taken by CBS News encouraged such suspicions, “the Panel cannot conclude that a political agenda at 60 Minutes Wednesday drove either the timing of the airing of the segment or its content.”
The story, which aired last Sept. 8, relied on four documents allegedly written by one of Mr. Bush's Texas Air National Guard commanders in the early 1970s, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who is now dead. Questions about the authenticity of the documents were raised almost immediately.
Some critics said the documents were most probably forgeries prepared on a modern word processor. Other critics questioned whether Killian would have - or could have - written them.
The documents suggested that Mr. Bush disobeyed an order to appear for a physical exam, and that friends of the Bush family tried to “sugar coat” his Guard service.
After a stubborn 12-day defense of the story, CBS News conceded that it could not confirm the authenticity of the documents and asked former Attorney General Dick Thornburgh and former Associated Press President Louis Boccardi to conduct an independent investigation into the matter.
Their findings were contained in a 224-page report made public on Monday. While the panel said it was not prepared to brand the Killian documents as an outright forgery, it raised serious questions about their authenticity and the way CBS News handled them.
#88814 - 11/12/0911:54 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Thanks, Kat for that piece. I think it shows that while many people who adhere to liberal or conservative philosophies assume news media are biased for the other side, the truth is most reporting errors are borne not out of an ideological agenda to support one side or denigrate the other, but out of competition. Many young reporters make it about themselves and not their subjects. Watch their facial expressions and gestures when they do stand-ups. It's not about telling the story so much as it is preparing a resume tape for the next big-market job. They have to be seen. Anchors and news directors have a tendency to try to make a story "sexier" than it is. More often, it's about trying to be first with the story or to be more compelling than rival stations in the telling of a story. But the average viewer doesn't know this. And that's compounded when the viewer subscribes to an ideology that's more right or more left than center. To them, every report is cause for suspicion.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#88865 - 11/16/0905:50 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: Kat]
Kat
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
Before I switched over to Campbell Brown at 8PM, I caught the beginning of O'Reilly - who interviewed Lou Dobbs.
I was shocked to hear that someone had shot at Lou Dobbs' home and that it was apparently over his immigration views.
Enjoyed the interview.... the only part I didn't like - and I've noted it before - I do not like O'Reilly's habit of pumping up FOX and his show at the expense of slamming everyone else. He claims that all of CNN's prime time programs are losing viewers. I think it depends on how it's measured - and I really wish he would stick to the news, rather than continue to drive a wedge between those of us who try to watch FOX and CNN.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
I love O'Reilly's show when I get to see it. He tends to interupt a lot but he is only trying to move the show along. He packs a lot into one hour with all of the different segments. I love his regular guests....Bernie Goldberg, Juan Williams, Mary Katherine Hamm, Dick Morris,the body language lady and even Karl Rove.
As far as Bill beating his chest over FOX ratings over the others, that's about the extent of it. Pointing out who has the better ratings and it's usually always done in a retalitary reaction to some slam or miss-information that the other network did about FOX (for ratings obviously). FOX does NOT go out of there way during their segments to denigrate the other networks. They don't need to. They can stand on their own. The way things are looking, some of these other networks really did themselves a disservice being in the tank for Obama all during the campaign. With the lone exception of Hannity's show, FOX covered all presidential candidates with equal fairness.
#88883 - 11/17/0907:04 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: Kat]
jazzwriter
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Our rival station says it all the time that they're number 1 in the market. In their promos. And when the reporters tag out their packages. Point of reference: A voice-over is when the anchor reads the story behind the video. A package is when the reporter narrates the story and usually ends with the reporting stating name, location and station/network - not necessarily in that order. To a point, they're right. Their signal is stronger than ours, so the range over the air is about 50 miles farther. So if you look at it from the point of their being available to more homes, they are No. 1. And no doubt, in the fringe areas where homes that don't have cable can't get us, they're the favorite. But here in town, where both stations' headquarters are, where the majority of stories by both stations are done, we are overwhelmingly preferred. When I go into businesses that have TVs on a local channel, they're on ours. When I meet people who comment about local news, I occasionally run into one who prefers the other channel, and there are some who watch both. But most people who recognize me from TV - they wouldn't know me otherwise - don't watch our rival except for certain network programs, like Dancing with the Stars, Lost and sports. It's annoying, sometimes aggravating, to hear them crow several times a day. But we feel no need to one-up them. The fact that we know we do a better job in the areas that we cover, and that our viewers appreciate us, is plenty.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#88886 - 11/17/0907:37 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
Kat
Musical Technologist
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
ok... and discuss - because the media is pretty much divided on this one (although Sarah Palin's book seems to have overshadowed all other real news this week).
Low blow: Ex-VP Dick Cheney slams President Obama for bowing to Japanese Emperor Akihito
Dick Cheney is blasting Barack Obama for plunging the presidency to a new low - by bowing to the Japanese emperor.
The White House deemed the weekend gesture a sign of respect. But Cheney chided it was downright wimpy.
"There is no reason for an American president to bow to anyone," Cheney complained to the Politico.com. "Our friends and allies don't expect it, and our enemies see it as a sign of weakness."
Maybe Cheney would prefer if Obama and Emperor Akihito had simply walked hand-in-hand, as former President George W. Bush did with Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah in 2005 - a traditional sign of Middle Eastern friendship.
Or perhaps Cheney is forgetting that ex-President Richard Nixon, a Republican, bowed in 1971 to Akihito's father, Emperor Hirohito - who ruled when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941.
No matter, Obama's bow - a full-on, bend-to-the-waist affair - had the Miss Manners set all atwitter yesterday as those on both sides debated the diplomatic meaning of the gesture.
State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told reporters that the bow was "a sign of respect to the emperor."
In an online State Department posting from 2007 titled "Protocol for the Modern Diplomat," envoys are advised to be aware of greeting rituals such as kisses, handshakes or bows and to follow a country's tradition.
"Failure to abide with tradition may be interpreted as rudeness or a lack of respect for colleagues," advises the posting, which make no mention of whether the rules should apply to a President as well.
I personally wish that Dick Cheney would find something more worthwhile to comment on.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
I agree. Years ago as a senior buyer I had many dealings with Japanese companies (Sanyo, JVC and a few others) and when we would meet in person is was quite common to bow out of respect particularly if they held a high position. I learned to abide by this custom and couldn't see it any other way.
I commend Bush for showing respect and keeping quiet. I didn't think he was a very good president but I always thought he was a likable person. I'll buy his memoire if he writes one. Cheney is just being himself!
Edited by TR808 (11/18/0904:13 AM)
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
#88893 - 11/18/0910:50 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
DaveS
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Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
If it is the custom of any nation to bow, it is then proper if not expected that president would do so. I wonder how the former VP would feel if were the Queen of England? Not to follow the custom would be a sign of disrespect on the part of President. Of course he was correct to do so and Mr. Cheney is way out line.
#88900 - 11/18/0906:10 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: DaveS]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
People get so caught up in gestures, it's ridiculous. In the military, it is customary for enlisted personnel to address commissioned officers as "sir" or "ma'am." In boot camp, it was required to say "sir" to company commanders, who were upper-level enlisted. Yet I had this friend who refused to call any officer sir. "They're not better than me." He said. And I wanted to tell him nobody said they were. They're officers; we're enlisted. You knew coming in that you were going to be expected to salute and say sir. Why make such a big deal?
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
For the second time in just over a week, Fox News is coming under fire for misusing old news footage. The latest flap is leading some people to charge that the cable news network is intentionally misleading its audience, while Fox claims a "production error."
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Who cares, really? Is this all the dirt they can find? I would think it IS a production error. How does it benefit FOX on whether 50 people are at a Sarah Palin book signing versus 10 people? Aren't the book sales numbers themselves the real indicator anyway? So stupid.....
#88951 - 11/20/0911:46 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
jazzwriter
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
I care. If Fox commentators weren't so bent on saying how "fair and balanced they are," and spend so much time blasting the other networks, it would be irrelevant. People do make mistakes, and that's understandable. O'Reilly always calls his show the "no-spin zone." Fox's promos remind us during most commercial breaks that they're fair. And Fox supporters, like my former Navy pal, boast about how Fox is the only network that covers certain stories. That means Fox and its fans promote the channel as something better and more accurate than other news media. Therefore, there's an expectation that Fox never air anything that's false or misleading. Beck downplays the number of people at a "liberal" event, and within weeks, Fox inflates the number of people at a "conservative" event. It raises legitimate questions of credibility. It raises legitimate concerns about whether someone at Fox - a producer, an anchor, a control room technician? - is methodically selecting video to distort the story being told. This won't make me stop watching O'Reilly, but it does make FNC, which many people have adopted as the holy grail of television news, appear to be a hypocrite.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
Maybe FOX would like people to think the ideologies and people that they are pushing are more popular than they actually are. Ya know, some people believe everything they hear and see on Fox is the gospel. How many so called "production errors" does it take before even Fox's most ardent supporters tune out?
The Jon Stewart show has better producers than Fox because they find the right video every time!
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
#88955 - 11/21/0911:01 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Originally Posted By: TR808
Ya know, some people believe everything they hear and see on Fox is the gospel.
Which is the very reason why errant reporting - whether a simple technical mistake or ideology-driven spin - on a channel that trumpets itself as the fairest news of all is reckless and potentially dangerous.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Not sure you are fussing about. Whether it be through it's anchors, it's guests or it's presentation/production, it is a FACT that Fox news presents both sides of issues more than any other network. Is it 100% gospel accurate 100% of the time? I doubt it. But it is more balanced than any other network, period. That's not even arguable and the reason for it's ratings. FOX habitually puts things in good perspective for the viewer. Like last night when O'Reilly pointed out that the AP had 11 people digging deep to fact check Palin's book but neither Obama's nor Biden's book had even one AP person check there's (Good God, I could only imagine...). This is important information.
Don't mix up production errors or a slanted viewpoint with the issue of providing BOTH a liberal and conservative opinion on over 75% of their programming. Even Hannity always has liberal "counterpoint" guests on. This is what people want! They don't have time to watch 3 networks and read blogs and newspapers to sift through all the crap. They want to go to one place to hear both views and then judge for themselves.
#88969 - 11/21/0907:36 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
jazzwriter
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Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
You can't separate the two. Perception is a powerful force. If I perceive that Fox, whether through negligence or malice, has become prone to slanting a story favorable to a conservative point of view by airing the wrong video, I will not trust Fox to give me accurate reporting. Of course, I don't expect everyone to see it that way. Fox loyalists (apologists?) will spin controversies such as this as insignificant or will try to point out how often the other networks screw up, as if that somehow makes Fox's error excusable. Maybe it doesn't matter to people who watch ONLY Fox. This might surprise you, but a large number of people who aren't Fox loyalists believe it slants as far to the right as you believe other media slants to the left. As with most things, the truth is somewhere between the extremes. Across the board, Fox does a better job in offering different perspectives. That is true. But to the masses who aren't on the "You won't see this on CNN" mailing list, errors like these can reinforce the notion that Fox is just as biased as other news media; they just do a better job of denying it.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#88970 - 11/21/0907:41 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Oh, wait, I left out one point. You've been out there polling America's news watchers? Where did you get the information that "they want to go one place"? Most people I know watch some combination of CNN, Fox and their local channels. "They don't have time to read blogs." You're joking, right?
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#88972 - 11/21/0908:40 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
Kat
Musical Technologist
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Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
I can buy that there was a production error.... but it's happened twice in 2 weeks.
The stock footage usually gets rolled by all the networks, but the problem for FOX this past time - is that the on-air person didn't know. That means that the copy didn't match or the production people were rushing.
Someone should be fired, the same way that CBS fired its staffers over the 60 minutes production and research flap.
That might make independents a little less suspicious of FOX.
#89086 - 11/27/0911:51 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
I have heard some really good things about this film and if I heard it right during the Colts/Ravens game the young man that is the subject of the film now plays with the Ravens. I am going to try to get out and see this one in the near future.
Hope you enjoyed your thanksgiving. I know I ate far more then I should have (same thing every year) Once of the great tings about places like this is that we have a chance to debate our points with those who may take a different stance. A little disagreement now and again is good for the soul.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
RE: The Underwear Bomber
- Pretty scary how close he was to detonating it blowing up 300 people. He was just 10 minutes too impatient trying to set it off before the gel bonded with the powder. Thank God!
- Pretty scary this guy slipped through when his own father warned authorities about his ties to Al Queda.
- Pretty scary this guy claims there are dozens more running around just like him with the same mission.
It seems the enemy views us and President Obama as "WEAK." I expect we will see much more of this for the next couple years.
Hello!!! Richard Reid, the shoe bomber, got on a plane after 9/11 on Bush's watch! It's not like the guy flew a plane into a building and killed thousands of people.
President Obama has taken responsibility for this lapse in security at a foreign airport. Our last leader never admitted to a failure. To me, Obama is looking STRONG! I know he's going to work hard to improve the situation.
#89451 - 12/30/0907:18 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Haven't we already been seeing it for years? The difference is the previous administration told us how they need to do this and that to keep America safe, and on those occasions when they actually caught somebody plotting a terrorist act, they patted themselves on the back. "See what a great job we're doing to stop terrorism?" This kook boards a plane in a foreign country, and somehow it's Obama's fault? He says they're dozens more like him, and that's scary? You mean you weren't scared during the 7 years (I'm not counting the year of 9/11) Bush-Cheney told us repeatedly about the threats? Oh, I forgot. Maybe the numerous color-coded threat alerts, in which nothing happened, gave us a false sense of security. We conveniently forgot there are thousands of terrorists seeking or creating opportunities to kill.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#89452 - 12/30/0907:21 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
You know I don't think these guys really give a damn what party the president comes from. They just don't like Americans period. I would have to agree that the President has reacted in a strong fashion. There is plenty of people to blame on this one and no doubt there will be a lot more changes in security procedures as there are whenever something like this takes place.
It was not that many years ago that you could go a week without seeing some plane being hijacked. That problem was addressed, admittedly it took some time, but it was addressed. So shall this ongoing problem. Let's face it the war on terror is going to be with us for some time, regardless of who is serving in the White House.
#89453 - 12/30/0908:31 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: DaveS]
Kat
Musical Technologist
Member
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
The guy had no luggage, no winter coat for Detroit and paid for his flight in cash. The Northwest counter should have flagged the ticket immediately. He should have been taken aside and questioned... by the way he was chattering, he would have collapsed right there.
That's called profiling - and note that it has to do with behavior and actions, not culture, race or religion. That's how it used to be done, back in the days hijackers and "take me to Cuba".
Kudos to the Netherlands. The body image scanners will be up and running by mid January.
Unfortunately, the scanners are needed in every airport. TSA was inspecting the commuter trains into NYC today, all the trains were late. They walked the tracks, looking for things and there were dogs sniffing the luggage. I'm not used to that in suburban CT.
The diaper bomber did something for us.... made us aware again that we are not safe. We need to be aware of this and never let another 9/11 occur.
Here's the thing.... I don't think the bomb maker actually intended for it to work because the terrorists are observing our response.
CNN had an explosives expert detonate 6 grams of the stuff, and it took about 30 seconds for the metal wire attached the fuse to heat up. Then there were flames for about 3 seconds and poof.
The guy was wearing the diaper bomb... and he was obviously not instructed that the front of his trousers were going to catch fire around his zipper. The guy had 80 grams of it.....if you calculate the heat up time, that's 390 seconds (6.5 minutes). He had no clue of how long or how big the flame would have been.
They're watching us for sure - and they do not care about our politics.
Went into NYC today, and I was walking down w 42nd street - on my way to meet my friends. At 6th avenue, I was diverted - and I had no idea what was going on. It was near the part of Times Square where they drop the ball. I just figured it was part of security and then I found out that it was a bomb scare.
Who leaves a van like this in the middle of Times Square?
Updated, 1:21 p.m. | Police officers sounded the all-clear and began reopening streets near Times Square that they had barricaded for nearly two hours in response to a suspiciously parked vehicle. After investigating the vehicle, a white 1992 Dodge van, the police said they discovered nothing harmful inside, only clothing.
“We gained entry to the vehicle and found clothing inside,” in the back of the van, Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman. “There’s no explosive device. The area is being restored to normal traffic.”
During a bustling late morning in Times Square, as preparations were under way for a rehearsal of the New Year’s Eve ball drop, police shut down several blocks on Seventh Avenue and partly evacuated two buildings. The ball drop rehearsal was delayed as the police directed all pedestrian traffic away from the area.
The police first discovered the white panel truck parked and apparently abandoned in Times Square around 11 a.m. on Wednesday. The truck had tinted windows covered by a tarpaulin, was discovered at Broadway and 42nd Street, near where the annual Times Square New Year’s Eve celebration is set to take place under heavy security provisions.
Officials at first said the van had apparently not been moved for some days.
But Mr. Browne said the vehicle was parked at its location since at least Wednesday morning and that investigators did not think it had been left there for a period of days.
He said there was no indication the van was used as a diversionary tactic by a would-be harm-doer; nor do investigators believe it was there to test the police response to such an event. He said there was a temporary, or paper, registration for the vehicle inside of it. Using that, he said, the police are trying “to identify the owner.”
There were several indications that made the police suspicious. The van had a “bogus” placard in its windshield for a nonexistent New York/New Jersey police entity, Mr. Browne said. The placard said something like, “detectives, crime scene, New York, New Jersey area,” said Mr. Browne, who said he would seek to explain what the placard said more precisely.
Even as Mr. Browne cautioned it might only end up being an illegally parked vehicle, it worried the police enough for the Police Department’s Counterterrorism Bureau to respond, along with officers from the Bomb Squad and Emergency Service Unit. As a precaution, the Bomb Squad technicians used a robot armed with a camera to approach the vehicle, Mr. Browne said.
Shortly after noon, the police directed all pedestrians to the west side of Seventh Avenue and were towing cars that were parked near the van.
Mr. Browne said that two buildings were being at least partially evacuated: 7 Times Square, the Conde Nast building, and 1460 Broadway, the building that is home to Nasdaq.
Coming a day before the New Year’s Eve celebration, the police analysis and fast response resembled a test run for the evening of Dec. 31, when hordes of officers will flood Times Square and an array of human and technological sensors will be in place to detect any wrongdoing.
Mr. Browne said the test run was not intended. “We train,” he said, for all eventualities. “We don’t need this kind of event to cause unnecessary disruption.”
He added: “We’d prefer not to have people create a suspicious condition that we have to disrupt.”
But holiday tourists and office workers were jolted out of their routine the day before New Year’s Eve.
Paul Cicero, an attorney, was in his office at 7 Times Square at about 11 a.m. when the police first asked everyone to move to the west side because of the suspicious vehicle.
He said the police alerted the building occupants with an announcement, adding that “they’ve been giving us periodic updates saying that the police are investigating a suspicious vehicle.”
“They moved us to the west side, and won’t let us out right now,” Mr. Cicero said. “They asked everybody to move from their office, anything other than the west side, to move to the west side.”
He added, “I was very concerned at first. I was one of the people who tried to get out. But I guess it is what it is right now. I felt a lot better once I had some information about what was going on, even though I’d still like to get the hell out of here.”
Mr. Cicero said that workers had congregated in hallways on the west side of the building and that they were “keeping the mood light.”
He said the fresh memory of the attempted terrorism attack on a Detroit-bound jetliner on Friday was adding to the jitters.
“I think everybody’s kind of accepted the fact that we can’t leave until they tell us,” Mr. Cicero said. “I think if it wasn’t New Year’s and it wasn’t Times Square and if everything hadn’t happened in Detroit, this would be a lot easier to swallow, but I think that’s what’s causing a lot of the concern.”
#89454 - 12/30/0909:39 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: Kat]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
It's funny in a way (funny strange). I don't look for terrorism in my community. An abandoned van would not seem out of place to me. Yet, every day that I use a certain camera on the job, I'm mindful of where I place its carrying bag. It's much more convenient to carry the bag with me instead of leaving it in the car. But when I start shooting, I have to set the bag somewhere. Most people recognize me and are aware of what I'm doing. But there are times when I'm going to be moving around a lot, and might set the bag in a hallway or outside an office, and the thought is always there: "I hope some panicky person who doesn't see me with the camera doesn't call 9-1-1 to report a bomb threat." And you're right, Kat and Dave. They don't care about our politics. Remember: These same people that the GOP want us to believe are being coddled by the Democrats denounced Obama's being awarded the Nobel Price for Peace. They don't like him any more than they liked Bush.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Of course they don't care about our politics! They care about our attitude and reaction to their threats and actions. They also prefer we treat these incidents as crimminal/police matters. And since these are just troubled individuals that went off the deep end (like the Fort Hood guy) we need to be sure we provide Miranda warnings and fair trials in case we didn't follow procedure. We need to continue to find ways for the terrorists to like us. The apology tours, closing Gitmo, and exiting Iraq are not enough.
Of course they don't care about our politics! They care about our attitude and reaction to their threats and actions. They also prefer we treat these incidents as crimminal/police matters. And since these are just troubled individuals that went off the deep end (like the Fort Hood guy) we need to be sure we provide Miranda warnings and fair trials in case we didn't follow procedure. We need to continue to find ways for the terrorists to like us. The apology tours, closing Gitmo, and exiting Iraq are not enough.
This is the same old, status quo, blame game rhetoric we have been hearing for years. Frankly, people like Dick Cheney should be quiet on the subject of security because they haven't been effective. They let the founders of Al Quada escape into the mountains. If you ask me, Gitmo is a symbol of a lack of accomplishments in a fight that lacked goals from the start. Pandora's Box was opened on September 11, 2001! Along with the terror, we have hope!
Why do you think countries like Yemen and Pakistan are now fighting all out battles with Al Qaeda? I'm hoping Obama doesn't get caught in a long term fight with people who wish ill will on America, i.e., the Republicans.
Edited by TR808 (12/31/0906:43 AM)
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
I disagree. The Republicans have ALWAYS embraced a more direct response to terrorism while the Democratic Congress remains the obstacle taking a turn the other cheek attitude.
The Obama administration must stop thinking of al Qaeda and Abdulmutallab as mere criminals. Obama’s blindness to Abdulmutallab’s al Qaeda connections and his insistence on calling him a “suspect” in the “alleged” bombing is the same mindset dictating Obama’s decision to send Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four other terrorists to New York for a civilian trial in federal court. Hopefully this incident will prod Obama into revisiting that historically bad decision.
Dick Cheney and Republicans are the same people who said "Bring it on" to the terrorist and "Mission accomplished" without actually accomplishing anything! Dick Cheney and the like confuse tough words for strength and 8 years of failed policy for direct action. Dick Cheney lacks the judgment and moral standing to make decisions on national security as evidenced by the Iraq and Afghan Wars.
It really doesn't surprise me that dishonest, hypocritical, and chicken hawk apologist like Dick Cheney use this moment to continue their never ending attacks on President Obama. It's almost like they want terrorist to succeed and Obama to fail. Cheney is warning of attacks to the US more often than Osama Bin Laden!
I'm happy the Diaper Bomber failed. His failure is an opportunity for us to search for ways to protect against foreign and domestic haters.
Happy New Year
Edited by TR808 (01/01/1009:31 AM)
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
#89475 - 01/01/1009:20 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
hbh
Member
Registered: 06/02/99
Posts: 1808
Loc: Kaarst
Body image scanners are nothing else than X-ray equipments. Let's name the child by its name. Get your extra dose of X-rays on every flight until the rates of cancer will help them think about this decision.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
I think Cheney is 100% correct!
Obama "reassured" us that the "suspect" has been charged and they took him to the county jail in Detroit and found him a lawyer?? WTF!!!
The president SHOULD be saying...."we have captured an enemy combatant--an illegal combatant under the laws of war, no uniform, direct attack on civilians--and now to prevent future attacks, he is being interrogated regarding information he may have about Al Queda in Yemen."
The whole thing is perverse. Obama sends 30,000 troops to fight terror overseas, yet if any terrorists come to attack us HERE, they are magically transformed from enemy into defendant.
He's a complete embarassment to the office. He doesn't get it. He keeps referring to this guy as an "extremist." A man who shoots abortion doctors is an extremist. An eco-fanatic that torches logging sites is an extremist. Abdulmutallab is not one of these. He is a jihadist. A government that refuses to admit we are at war and refuses to even name the enemy (jihadist is a word banished from the Obama vocabulary) turns laxity into a governing philosophy.
I am not concerned about words. The logical American is more concerned about actions. Neither Cheney's words nor his actions resulted in the eradication or reduction of Al Qaeda or a significant reduction in global terrorism. As far as I'm concerned Dick Cheney was the one who put the guy's diaper on him!
Cheney and his supporters are delusional if they think the words used to describe the capture of one loon out of thousands is going to make the problems go away. Cheney and his supporters are as out of touch with reality as Bin Laden and his supporters! One needs to come out of hiding and the other needs to go into hiding.
All of Bush's mistakes are now Obama's fault to a guy who is an embarrassment to all ex-Vice Presidents. Cheney must have difficulty dealing with his record of ineptitude and incompetence because he is trying hard to revise 8 years of failed politics. I know Obama is tired of dealing with Cheney's legacy of bad advice to George Bush.
How could someone of sound mind and judgment say that Cheney's advice was 100% correct? Dick Cheney is not a credible source for advice!
Edited by TR808 (01/01/1002:04 PM)
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
You may just be correct! First, the top GOP leader blocked Obama's selection to head up the TSA. Therefore, Bush's policies remain in effect until the Republicans stop BSing.
Top GOP guys also voted against explosive detection equipment an additional security measures in airports. If this stuff weren't so real, it would be truly laughable!
Quote:
Republicans have cast votes against the key TSA funding measure that the 2010 appropriations bill for the Department of Homeland Security contained, which included funding for the TSA, including for explosives detection systems and other aviation security measures. In the June 24 vote in the House, leading Republicans including John Boehner, Pete Hoekstra, Mike Pence and Paul Ryan voted against the bill, amid a procedural dispute over the appropriations process, a Democrat points out. A full 108 Republicans voted against the conference version, including Boehner, Hoekstra, Pence, Michelle Bachmann, Marsha Blackburn, Darrell Issa and Joe Wilson.
Sen. Jim DeMint has locked a "hold" on President Obama's pick to head the Transportation Security Administration over concerns the nominee would undermine safety by allowing airport security screeners to unionize, the latest in a series of appointments stymied by Republican objections that are increasingly frustrating the Senate's Democratic majority.
#89487 - 01/01/1004:21 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
Kat
Musical Technologist
Member
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
ouch. This thread gave me a headache!
Dick Cheney's opinion is no longer relevant.... he's not the VP anymore. So he should be quiet on matters on national security.... because the terrorists want a divided America, not a strong America.
Don't you think it's hypocrisy to fault President Obama for not implementing policies you are doing everything in your powers to block? The same people who voted against airport screening, explosive detection, and no fly list are the same ones who are doing the shrieking. The GOPs policy of saying no to everything is helping to make air travel less safe. People need to stop parroting what they hear on Fox and talk radio.
Edited by TR808 (01/01/1005:16 PM)
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
I fault him because he doesn't have a clue. The TSA nominee is being held up because Republicans don't want the TSA unionized. Do you think that is a wise idea Ars?
Unions worked so well for the auto industry.....I can see the screeners now with there feet on the desk reading the paper "I will be with you in a minute."
What a joke the unions are, more payback for votes. I guess the millions of dollars of contributions to the Obama campaign by the unions will be paid back soon! Is this change you can believe in?
Unions will be the open door for terrorists. They'll find ways around the already shoddy practices of the TSA, and then it will take months of barganing to get the changes put into place. People who screw up will be protected under the Union rules.
#89491 - 01/01/1006:02 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
Wait just a minute here Steve! Let's not assume that just because a union is involved that the thing is going to fall apart at the seems. The country has been built over the past five or six decades on back of solid union labor. Are they perfect? Of course not, there are problems that are have to be dealt with all the time. But do not forget the reason unions came into place in the first place was due to shady management practices. Was it the unions that created the banking mess of the past few years? Was the unions that caused Wall Street to go into a tail spin? There is enough blame to pass around for the screw ups in this country without taking shots at a overall group of people.
And no I am not a union member. My son is, my dad was, my grandfather was and they are and were all hard working men. To assume that just because you are a union man makes one lazy and worthless by association is unfair if not down right insulting.
Hey, I believe the Republicans would have other reasons if the guy wasn't into unions and fair treatment of workers--"He jaywalked in Butte, Montana in 1991 and that shows he has no respect for the law". To me, this is sabotage that makes our government less efficient and keeps the TSA from having leadership and direction.
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
#89499 - 01/01/1009:58 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
It's smoke and mirrors. They stand on principles to the detriment of the greater good. Attack Obama relentlessly so they'll have a chance of winning in 2012. Interestingly, I was checking in another discussion group where the conversation was not about politics at all. It's about writing, and the creator of the topic wanted to discuss meanings of words. He started things off by breaking down the definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" and then illustrating how the terms are used today. In the process, he mentioned something about "parroting" what the talking heads say.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Dave - I was 1/2 joking about the comments. There are good workers and bad workers is all working environments. Unions were good after the Depression and into the 70's but since we have become a global economy they generally do more harm than good and hurt job growth. THis is a good read about unions.
Aren't police and firefighters all unionized, as are the airline pilots and flight attendants? DeMint's rationale for blocking a very qualified individual is pretty lame and putting airport security at risk.
DeMint is the same guy who said he would do everything possible to ensure that President Obama fails. In my opinion, he's putting his party before the country. Why else would he fear unions more than the terrorist? SC sure knows how to elect them!
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
#89506 - 01/02/1011:48 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
Kat
Musical Technologist
Member
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
This thread gives me a headache... with an emphasis on party partisanship and misplaced anger.
Elected officials are supposed to work for us... which is not what's happening with all of these partisan squabbles.
No offense.... but voting to slash funding is not exactly the same as blocking the appointment of someone to head the TSA. Chris Dodd is going to find it difficult to be re-elected - but not due to this....
Funding is an action which affects the new fiscal year. Blocking an appointment is largely symbolic - and leads to delay in the TSA doing its business.
#89508 - 01/02/1012:20 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: Kat]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Granted, unions aren't the best friend of the consumer or the marketplace. But aren't we getting ahead of ourselves if fear of future unions gets in the way of dealing with problems that exist now?
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#89509 - 01/02/1012:45 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
The sucess of the auto companies from Japan is not totally been the result of have non union shops. First of in most cases they have a pretty good package available to their workers. They also have shown that they can do business in a lot of other ways far better then the big three have done and thus can keep prioces in check and still turn out a quality product.
To compare a union which is a collective of workers who seek to gain a point of leverage with the company they work for to a cartel like opec is nuts. OPEC controls is poduct and has the power to tell its consumers here is the product and here is the price you will pay for it. You have no where else to get so pay up or shut up. Come on now, that is not what a union does.
OK, higher wages will often drive higher prices, but at the same time it is not a given that keeping the wages in check will mean lower prices. There is always the element of greed to contend with as companies seek to maximize profits.
When I was working on my business degree many years ago, an econ prof of mine said that the purpose of the company was to get as much production out of its workers as possible while paying them as little as possible. While at the same time the job of the worker was to work as little as possible while getting as much back in wages as possible. In an ideal world the two forces meet somewhere in between. Workers putting forth enough effort to produce a quality product while being paid an livable wage. Problem we do not live in an ideal world.
I am a non union worker. Recently I approached the powers to be in my little company with the idea that perhaps based on my background, education and over all effort it would be nice if I made a bit more then I was getting at the time for the work that I do. They did not see it in the same light as I did and declined my request. So I packed up my resume and went out looking elsewhere. When I came in and told them I was leaving because I had a better offer, they decided that... well perhaps I was in fact worth a little more and made a offer. So now I make more then what I asked for in the first place, because I had a little leverage. The average worker does not have that without a union to stand behind them.
I do not think that unions are always right. Nor do I think as the writer does that they are sole problem with the economy. They have become necessary in our economy because of the way companies often deal with their workers.
#89511 - 01/03/1007:45 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: DaveS]
Kat
Musical Technologist
Member
Registered: 12/24/00
Posts: 4344
Loc: Danbury, Connecticut
Most government non-salaried workers are unionized. TSA workers should be allowed..... under our government... to decide whether or not they want to be in a union. It is their right.
For one Senator to block an appointment for a TSA chief - for most of 2009 - well, I just think it's political grandstanding that will blow up on the Senator. It is not the Senator's right to block unionizing thru his political position.
Registered: 10/20/01
Posts: 2531
Loc: Arlington, VA
Originally Posted By: jazzwriter
It's funny in a way (funny strange). I don't look for terrorism in my community. An abandoned van would not seem out of place to me.
You see, it's more the opposite for me. I think it really depends on your community. I've become conditioned to be suspicious of every unattended bag. I look at people twice and wonder about that person standing next to me on the Metro or someone detonating a car bomb on the 14th St. bridge in the middle of rush hour as I'm driving across. I remember waiting for a bus at the Pentagon Metro station and there was an unattended knapsack on a bench. Someone told the MP's, who routinely patrol there, along with Metro Police, and they shut the place down. As it turned out, it wasn't a bomb, I guess someone just forgot it, but it was a scary situation to be sure. This is the world we live in now. It's the price we pay to live where we live.
_________________________
All I ask of Fate is that the people she hurls into my life be amusing to one degree or another.
Registered: 10/20/01
Posts: 2531
Loc: Arlington, VA
Originally Posted By: Kat
For one Senator to block an appointment for a TSA chief - for most of 2009 - well, I just think it's political grandstanding that will blow up on the Senator.
It's totally ridiculous and an extremely lame excuse for not appointing someone to a very important position. But, I have to say this, where are this man's supporters to allow this appointment to be blocked for so long? How is this allowed to happen? Why are we only hearing about this now, in light of a near tragedy? You know the old saying, either ****, or get off the pot. It's time for action. This should have never been allowed to drag on for a year.
_________________________
All I ask of Fate is that the people she hurls into my life be amusing to one degree or another.
#89588 - 01/11/1009:08 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Different subjects, but I didn't see the need to start new threads: Mark McGwire NBC
I find McGwire's confession and apology to be empty of any substance. He did steroids but it was a low dose. He didn't come clean when it was appropriate to do so because he wanted to protect his family and friends. He didn't do steroids to improve his performance. Blah, blah, blah. It would have been better if he'd gone to his grave with the secret. This is such a cop-out, along the lines of Clinton not inhaling.
Okay, I wasn't following this in the beginning. Does anybody remember a few years ago when it was announced that Leno would leave The Tonight Show and Conan would take over? Was that Leno's decision or the executives'? I ask because when the time came for the switch, NBC, devoid of creative talent that they're willing (able?) to pay for, thought it better to bring Leno back instead of producing 5 original programs. And now that the mission is being aborted, they want to put Leno back in his old spot - but for only 30 minutes - and shaft Conan in the process.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
I understand, from what I have read, that it was very similar to Johnny Carson's "decision" to retire. NBC top brass basically forced it on Jay. And now Jay has lost 40% of the 10PM audience, and Conan has lost just over 50% of Jay's 11:30PM audience.
Can't see any way they fix this mess. Watched Jay last night, which I seldom do, and he was really funny. This is providing him a ton of ammunition for his monologue.
#89591 - 01/12/1002:06 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: stevec]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
Problem is the format has become rather dated. The Tonight Show has not changed much over several decades. Then they add yet another version of the thing. I get the feeling that people are just growing tired of it. If you watch Jay at ten why hang around for the Tonight show? With ratings down on both shows the only one smiling is David Letterman. I think the time may have come to rethink the whole late night thing and come up with something fresh.
As for good old Mark....kick he is butt out of baseball along with Bonds, Sosa and anyone else who used the drugs to aid performance. What does he mean he did not take them to boost his performance? That's the only thing there are used for, who does this fool think he is kidding. Pete Rose is banned from baseball for betting, which is wrong, but did not effect the outcome of games. Mark and others do drugs which do have an very definite effect on the game and yet they are allowed to return. The logic of it all escapes me. So now McGuire is a hitting coach. What he is first lesson, how to hide the banned substance you are now using!
Actually, Jay has about the same audience numbers he had before; about 5+ million. Letterman has about 4.2 million nightly, and is up slightly. You can infer that O'Brien with 2.5 million has lost some of those to Letterman, who was getting beaten consistently by Jay for the last several years.
I think they are nervous at NBC because Conan was expected to be really strong in the under-30 demographic, and is getting beaten there by Letterman quite badly.
So they lost the older demographic by moving Jay, and are losing the younger demographic by sticking with Conan. They need to do something. And that something may include showing Conan the door, paying his contract out, and giving Jay back his show.
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
I find the whole steriod baseball thing amusing. Do I think Maguire is a dirtbag? No doubt! He's been on more cycles than Lance Armstrong. Does he deserve to be in the hall of fame? Sure, why not, I watched him hit the HR's. Just put an asterisk there.
I'll assume all of those steriod-enhanced homers off all those steriod-enhanced pitchers really were hit...until all the owners, administrators and uniformed personnel who prospered from the era return the money. Who are they crapping?
Since baseball tolerated or enabled or encouraged steriod use, the game will have to live with the consequences. Can't have it both ways.
As a sidenote, why does everyone only talk about how steriods affected the "personal records"? What about team wins that led to playoff appearences and world series. That's almost more outrageous.
#89600 - 01/12/1008:07 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: SH]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
Good point, I do have mixed feelings. The league did not have a policy or did not enforce what may have been so on that basis I guess they are entitled. Though I have a feeling that the guys who actually vote will not feel the same way. They knew the effect of the drugs and that is why they took them. So they cheated, is that really the guys we want in the hall? The thing has always made me wonder the most was why these guys? I mean Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, A-Rod were all good players before they started using so why begin at all. You would think the big users would have been the marginal players looking for an edge. Then again maybe it was just the good guys who a lot better who got caught.
#89604 - 01/13/1006:56 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: DaveS]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
Temptation. Think about when you were in school. A big test is coming up. You know most of the material and were confident that you'd pass. Hours before the exam, you find that some of your classmates have a cheat sheet that covers material that you're a little unsure of. You tell yourself you don't need it because you know enough to pass that portion of the test. When the time comes, you see an opportunity. The teacher's not looking. Everyone sitting around you has used or intends to use the cheat sheet that's right there for you to grab. Do you let it go on to the next person? Or do you say to yourself, "Why not?" You could get an A instead of a B - a perfect score instead of a 90. Not to make excuses for anyone, but the widespread belief is that an overwhelming majority of MLB players from the late 1980s until around 2004 used a performance enhancer at one time or another. The ones who weren't using were isolated. So the superstars saw what it was doing for the average guys, and they saw how their numbers - and their teams' wins - were affected by the widespread use. And since baseball executives chose to ignore the problem, Bonds, McGwire and Sosa got swept up in it.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#89611 - 01/13/1011:10 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
I understand the temptation among average to slightly better then average players. My playing days predate the steroids problem by a couple of centuries, but I would have to admit there were times when I wanted to find that extra burst of speed that our top wide receiver had or a little more strength to make that push past the middle of the line. Would I have used if they had been available? I would like to say no, but given a chance to go to Division I instead of a Division II or III, well it does make one wonder. Maybe it is not such a black and white question and answer.
But why the likes of Barry Bonds. He is so good anyway why the need for something extra? Of course I don't or didn't have his skill so again not so simple. Then there is the time line for many of these guys. Using at the end of their playing days. To extend it all a season or two more? Maybe it is just too hard to give up that life. My rather limited playing time, came to and end quickly with a broken neck. I had no choice, well I could play...assuming anyone would actually have let me...and taken the chance of dying or I could go to the broadcast booth and get my thrills watching others. Easy choice for me, maybe not so easy for all these guys. I just wish they would all just come clean and admit they did it, and move on and help the sport get itself cleaned up.
#89614 - 01/13/1012:43 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: DaveS]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
I think for Bonds, it was a case of keeping up with the Joneses. His raw talent was on par with the best of the best, yet McGwire and Sosa separated from him in the home run department.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
#89619 - 01/13/1005:44 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: jazzwriter]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
Yeah after thinking about that probably was the case with most of the aging top stars. I, of course was never in that area of being super star status. That does make it difficult to feel what must be going on in their heads dealing the loss of skill and status. Though I at my age sort of get the idea of how that must feel, as the business world I work in goes for younger and younger talent. Not much I can do about it in my world, but can see where that temptation to hold on would take place.
Someone said that "we must fight them there, so we don't have to fight them here"! What do you do when they are already here? The Hutarees remind me of Al Qaida!
It's the typical digs from the same people! As usual, they bring the criticism without mentioning a solution. What is their plan for energy independence? Along the way, these guys developed the notion that their job was to serve a party! Politicians like John Boehner see oil drilling as yet another opportunity to say 'no' and not a chance to solve a problem.
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Don't be so blinded by the rhetoric and ideology. Quite frankly...Nobody believes him!
Don't be fooled by Obama's energy rhetoric. If anything, the policies announced by Obama yesterday will actually decrease and delay future U.S. oil production. The President actually canceled four lease sales off the Alaska coast that were planned to begin producing oil within the next two years, delayed a planned lease off Virginia until at least 2012, and placed some areas off limits for at least seven years. Go back and look at his actual announcement again: he only promised new exploration off the Atlantic coast. There is absolutely no guarantee that any new drilling will ever occur!
Secretary Ken Salazar's Interior Department still has full discretion to never allow a single drop of oil to be harvested from these waters. And that doesn't even begin to address the court challenges the enviro-left will employ to attack and delay the entire process.
What is really going on here is the man behind the curtain is trying to win political support for comprehensive energy and climate legislation (HIGHER TAXES!)...to deliver legislation that regulates carbon dioxide emissions before any fuel is produced(HIGHER TAXES!). Legislation like cap and trade that is estimated to cost the average family of four almost $3,000 per year, cause 2.5 million net job losses by 2035, and produce a cumulative gross domestic product (GDP) loss of $9.4 trillion between 2012 and 2035. High energy prices are not a side effect of climate legislation - they are the whole point (HIGHER TAXES!). Americans deserve an energy policy that reduces prices, creates private sector jobs, and reduces our national debt. Right now they have the opposite.
Where's the proof? Of course, there is no guarantee that any new drilling will occur. The plan is to explore coastal areas for oil. It makes sense to find the oil first before harvesting or drilling anything!
Americans deserve energy independence but it's not going to come within a few months. Along with the the exploration and search for fuel sources in the USA, we need to encourage more scientific research and development in energy.
Where was the crystal ball a few years ago?
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
It's not bad enough that, for some time forward, the words "Republican National Committee" will be the most frequent phrase surfacing in online search terms using the words "West Hollywood bondage club." Now leaders of the RNC have to contend with the defection of key constituencies from the committee's donor base. Read Full Article: 'Bondage-gate' spurs donor drain for RNC
Quote:
A new entrant in the when-it-rains-it-pours category.
The Republican National Committee sent a fundraising mail piece earlier this month with a return number that leads to a phone-sex line offering "live, one-on-one talk with a nasty girl who will do anything you want for just $2.99 per minute." Read Full Article: RNC "census" mailer offers phone sex number
Look at the amateurs who run the Republican party! How are you going to talk about lowering deficits when you're out making it rain like Adam "Pacman" Jones in an Atlanta strip club?
I wonder who got spanked for this misappropriation of donations.
Edited by TR808 (04/01/1006:26 PM)
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 1841
Loc: Algonquin, IL
Yes, more drilling IF it brings gas prices down and makes us more self reliant. But if we are using it to create massive red tape of new legislation (cap and trade) that cripples businesses for the sole purpose of feeding money-drunk Washington and creating a cash cow for them...then no, we don't want to do it. We want to create more private sector jobs, not eliminate them. And we certainly don't need anymore government jobs.
While a certain amount is necessary, government jobs are a drain on the economy. Retire at 55 with full health and pension and you and I must work another 15 years and support them while while we put that extra time in. It's a joke!
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The U.S. economy gained more jobs in March than any other month in the last three years, according to a government report released Friday.
The Labor Department said the economy gained 162,000 jobs in the month, compared to a revised reading of a 14,000 job loss in February. That makes March only the third month of gains since the recession began. Read full article here: March jobs report shows growth
The unemployment rate held steady at 9.7%. I expect this number to start dropping. The President will need to explore ways to encourage innovation and entrepreneurship. Does John Boehner have a plan?
I know this is bad news for the gloom and doom crew who pray for the failure of the country; hate Obama just because; and seek power by trying to stall the current administration.
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Economists have been saying for a while that the Great Recession has ended. Now, there are signs that the general public is finally starting to agree.
Though still pitifully low, consumer confidence is improving.
But some of the positive economic news of recent weeks, like the best job gains in three years, the continued stock market rally and early signs of a turnaround in home values, is starting to make people more hopeful.
#90265 - 04/17/1009:23 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: hbh]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
We are beginning to see a turn in our area. Just one county over from us was one of hardest hit late last year and prompted a visit from the President to make his point for the stimulus package. Unemployment is still double digit at this point but dropping. There has been far more talk about the new jobs being created then lost ones. Elkhart county is heavy in the RV and Mobile Home industry and has always been subject to layoffs during any economic downturn. What he are seeing are new kinds of businesses making the choice to relocate or expand here. A large number of skilled but unemployed workers makes for a nice labor pool to draw from. The closing of so many plants left a lot of unused building available at reduced cost and ready to have someone new move in and set up shop. Manufactured Housing and RV's will still play a part in that economy, but even that seems to returning. Some of the plants in that field are hiring new or recalling old workers as well. Taking up the slack of those who fell leaving a customer base that feels better about spending now.
We have seen a 300 million dollar development go up near the University of Notre Dame. A mixed use project of shops, condos, apartments and hotels. The shops are filling up quickly. The draw to the campus sure does help, but it is good to retailers having enough faith to open new stores.
Of course things will vary in different parts of the country and I would not want to suggest it is all roses here, but it is getting better. My oldest son works for a local company that process sheet metal products for a number of companies one of which is Ford. He has been on ten hour days, six sometimes seven days a week for several months now. Ford must be selling some cars to be buying up that much product from this company.
It's ironic that those seeking to become citizens of the U.S. have to pass such a test but a hugh majority of the natives don't know much about their own country.
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
#90403 - 05/02/1011:04 AMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
DaveS
Member
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: Mishawaka, Indiana
Point well taken, I doubt very much that the majority of the kids or the adults for that matter that I work with have a strong working knowledge of American history or just how the political system. Can you imagine givinging a test before you are given your voter registration card?
Don't be so blinded by the rhetoric and ideology. Quite frankly...Nobody believes him!
Don't be fooled by Obama's energy rhetoric. If anything, the policies announced by Obama yesterday will actually decrease and delay future U.S. oil production. The President actually canceled four lease sales off the Alaska coast that were planned to begin producing oil within the next two years, delayed a planned lease off Virginia until at least 2012, and placed some areas off limits for at least seven years. Go back and look at his actual announcement again: he only promised new exploration off the Atlantic coast. There is absolutely no guarantee that any new drilling will ever occur!
President Obama was correct to take a cautious approach to off-shore drilling. The proof that we need to explore before drilling is in the Gulf of Mexico now. The "drill, baby, drill" set is pretty quiet on the matter.
_________________________
"Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is." -- Miles Davis
DETROIT - General Motors Co posted a first-quarter profit as production snapped back. The automaker also said it was making progress on a turnaround expected to put it on track toward its first full-year profit since 2004.
#90470 - 05/17/1005:41 PMRe: For lack of an appropriate place ...
[Re: TR808]
jazzwriter
Member
Registered: 11/15/99
Posts: 9495
Loc: Greenville, Miss. USA
I have a 2009 Corolla. It wasn't my vehicle of choice (Chevy Impala still holds that distinction). But the sales team worked out a financing option that was suitable to me. Still, that's welcome news about GM.
_________________________ And when he cut open the shark, there was a leg. - Missy, "Uncle Bob's Leg" (unedited)
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