Just wondering what all you musicians think about Kenny G's hit
"Sax-a-loco".

Sounds a lot different than what I've been used to hearing from him over the years -- do you think this'll go down as one of those hits that bands play in the genre, like Winelight, Morning Dance, etctera?

ROTFLMAO.

About as much of chance of that happening as a snowball surviving in hell.

Kenny G is the smooth jazz equivalent of my friend, Michael Bolton. Both are favorite targets and examples of everything that ended a genre.

Hmm -- a stronger and much more negative reaction than I anticipated.

Although I know people have made fun of him over the years -- and partly his own fault (like overdubbing himself over Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World" and then having to donate all the proceeds to charity as a possible 'back-pedal'), and also playing sharp a lot, (say the sax players I know) -- I was actually pretty impressed with the Sax-a-Loco tune -- it sounds like a classic. But not in the same genre as Morning Dance, Curves etcetera -- more like something that would belong on a CD beside older hits like Herbie Hancock's Cantaloupe Island.

He also set some records, such as the 45 minute note-holding technique he brought to our consciousness (I think someone else invented it, but he was the first to bring it to my awareness). The first time I heard him do it on his Live album it was a real sticker-outer that I played to a number of people. And they were all impressed with the emotion he generated by holding the note, and actually getting louder and stronger the longer he held it.

Not that I expect the world to agree -- but one of my die hard sax friends believes he deserves some respect -- he's one of the few instrumentalists to have broken into mainstream radio back in the 80's, like Santana did on the strength of his tone and musical ideas, although probably to a lesser extent. (And to his credit, Kenny did it without having to hook up with a vocalist like Santana did with Rob Thomas, Michelle Branch etcetera).

I'm not sure how these negative attitudes develop about artists who shoot to fame - for some, like Britney Spears it's the way they live their lives, but with Kenny G, Michael Bolton, and Celine Dion I don't understand it. I'm not a huge fan of Kenny G like I am other artists by the way -- but I do appreciate some of his work (like his Live album which I own on cassette tape). And I also appreciate his place in musical history with some of the achievements above.

(He just came out with his own line of saxophone accessories by the way, as a side-piece).

we have had several threads thru the years which discussed the G Man and prevailing attitudes about his music. I have always remained conservative and refrained from bashing him.

Kenny G was an original Rippington and has really veered far away from that beginning. These days, he's all about the $$$ and has not been very gracious towards his fans.

I don't think that there's much he can do to improve his standing with jazz fans in general .... but that's a discussion that has also been discussed various times in our contemporary jazz forum.

But I do firmly believe that none of his music will ever be considered a classic in the same way that Grover's music is a classic.

You can judge for yourself.... here's Pat Metheny's famous rant about Kenny G:

http://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html

And Pat's response a couple of days later:

http://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg2.html

I've read all this before -- and many times -- my question was about the song on its own merits -- not specifically the artist.

What prompted the question was the thought occurred to me many times as I heard it on the radio, and I'm still interested in a musician's perspective on the song, hence the placement in this section. And as a corollory, I feel there are certain artists who get beat up in spite of touching the hearts of the public -- like the Bee Gees did after the incredibly successful Saturday Night Fever...


But back to Sax-a-loco -- I wouldn't hesitate to put the song into a repertoire I had to play at some point; I think he did a good job on the song. It would be interesting to see if the rest of the band would be willing to separate the message from the messenger.

I'm not saying the tune isn't good.

You asked if it would go down in history ... as comparable to Winelight.... my opinion is not a question of separating the message from the messenger.

It can't be done in Kenny G's case.... he's already historic for helping BA launch smooth jazz. The jazz police, primarily made up of straight ahead types.... would never consider the G Man to be a peer of Grover's.

The thing to remember is that for a tune to have impact - it has to affect a great deal of people. Winelight did that, Morning Dance did that. Musicians - whether they embraced the sound or not - did not affect the impact. And yes, both Grover and Spyro have gigging and amateur musicians in the ranks of their fans.

Having a so called smooth jazz hit in 2008 - is barely a blip in history. There are only about a half dozen FM stations left - and BA controls them. The airplay is not there for the G Man's tune to have significant impact - and maybe the dwindling airplay is a reason why he has been rude and snappish towards his fans.

While I agree that Kenny G will never be considered a peer to Grover or many other contempo jazz artists, I truly believe the man to be capable of playing jazz music convincingly but chooses not to. He's playing what he loves to play. And this playing 'sharp' thing really annoys me! Apparently millions of listeners couldn't care less and neither do I. And unless one has perfect pitch, who actually hears it?? Before Pat Metheny even mentioned it, I never even gave it much thought!! And while his music will not be compared to Grover's catalog, I do think he's written some tunes that will replayed as much as Grover's tunes simply because they are good tunes. A good song is a good song, IMO. I will admit to hating his 'vibrato' though! LOL!

P.S. I never saw the problem with him doing the duet over Louis Armstrong's song. Natalie Cole did it (yeah, I know it's her father) as did a few other artists! What's the big deal?? Folks really need to lighten up!

"I do think he's written some tunes that will replayed as much as Grover's tunes simply because they are good tunes."

My thoughts exactly....

on the basis of a few hummable tunes from Songbird circa 1988 or 1989.... we can ignore that he plays out of tune?

Yes, I hear it.... I didn't need Metheny to point it out. Many soprano players play sharp.... which is why I think that in the wrong hands, the instrument sounds like a water fowl!

I don't care about the Louis Armstrong thing at all. Nor have I ever bashed the G-Man (do a search). It's usually me reminding other boarders that G is a poster child for bashing.

Sorry, I just don't think that he is in a league with Grover or guys like David Sanborn or Gerald Albright. Yeah, G has sold a lot of CDs.... but that doesn't mean he's in their league.

If you're asking whether any of his tunes will become standards in a fakebook.... just remember "Celebration" and "Joy to the World" (3 Dog Night) are also standards.

Posted by DWBass:

"He's playing what he loves to play. And this playing 'sharp' thing really annoys me! Apparently millions of listeners couldn't care less and neither do I. And unless one has perfect pitch, who actually hears it?? Before Pat Metheny even mentioned it, I never even gave it much thought!!"

DWBass: I don't have issues with it either because I couldn't hear it. I still remember the reaction of my girlfriend when I played the live album to her -- she felt how he managed to connect with the audience at many different places on that release. The pitch problem wasn't an issue...

I'm prepared to forgive and forget for all the ways these artists fall out of favor, or tarnish their image to the public, even though none of it was really an issue for me either. Some of them come back, like the Beatles did after the "More Popular than Jesus" comment and their snubbing of the queen in the Phillipines.

I like what Pat Metheny said in his follow-up to his remarks about Kenny:

"...it is a little alarming to me to see that my little rant on this topic seems to have generated such a relatively huge response. it makes me feel that in this day and age, even within the "jazz community", controversy, especially PUBLIC controversy, has the chance to "win" over musical substance, even in terms of what gets discussed."

So, on that note, back to the music....

I'm curious about the other tunes on G-man's new CD -- they are all original and collaborations from what I read on his site, and in a different vein than what he's done in the past -- who knows, he may garner some new respect if he can pump out good tunes like Sax-a-Loco consistently.

In any case, I think he did a good job on Sax-a-Loco and find it encouraging you think so too. After listening to the CD samples on Amazon, there are a couple other upbeat tunes that sounded memorable.

I remenber Kenny G from years ago and liked most of his stuff, then he wnt into this classical/covers thing, I've only heard Sax-a-Loco once and it reminded me of his Havana #, personally i prefer David Sanborn, Boney James and of course Jay Beckenstein more originality.

Garyg / UK
ps no relation to Kenny

I tend to agree that Kenny hasn't reached me the way the others have, probably in the order of Jay Beckenstein, then David Sanborn, and then Boney James, and then Kenny G. I'd have to throw Jeff Kashiwa in there before Kenny, maybe with Boney James given his Ripps work and some of his solo pieces. Plus his work with the Sax Pack is great stuff-- and I put Paul Taylor in there with Jeff and Boney -- Steppin' Out was a great CD from Paul.

For me, I dig his live recording shows much better than most of his studio recordings. It's what the band does live that supports him. I Can't be mad at him for his sense and opportunity of marketalbility.

Okay;

I'll be the first to say it - speaking as a professional DJ of 35+ years, Sax-a-Loco bears the mark of an instant click factor. I find the tune annoying and it will not make it to my collection nor to my broadcast. That being said, I am a fan of the G-man and my bride would have divorced me if I didn't get Songbird. I'm not bashing the G, I'm responding to the question. Just one humble old man's opinion. Pass the Geritol...

What do you mean by an "instant click factor"?

Billy G:

What do you mean by an "instant click factor"?

Sorry for the delay in responding. Trying to catch up after a few days.

Click factor?

It's that one thing, what ever it is, that turns a person off whether it's another person, an automobile, a tv show, or a recording. Something about Sax-a-loco just turns me off. Hence; click factor. It's not the artist, it's the song.

I guess the "sharp" thing is similar to some neo-soul vocalists who seem to sing slightly off the note on purpose and some female vocalists who seem to sound purposefully childlike (modern day Marilyn Monroes?). It annoys me but they get marketed and therefore people buy them.

The thing that I noticed most about Sax-o-loco was the total lack of dynamics. He's playing in a monotone all the way through. Probably purposefully because format driven music is supposed to be unnoticable.

Well said!

Mike

Hmmm...an old thread brought back to life. Well since I last responded I've been involved in several in depth conversations with Vail Johnson (bassist for Kenny G). He also provided my wife and I free tickets and backstage passes for the Hampton Jazz Festival here in Virginia. He actually loves R&B and was standing on the floor right next to fans watching the other artists perform! He was digging Kem big time. I have to say there are many misconceptions about Kenny G. He is extremely loyal to his 'fans' and his bandmates who have been with him over 22 years (except the drummer who is new). The show was amazing and he even gave away a brand new Kenny G signature sax (worth over $2k) to a raffle winner (sounds pretty generous to me). Even had the winner come up on stage and played the sax for her before handing it over! He and Vail left the stage and mingled among their 'fans' throughout the show. Folks actually touching his hair (females only). I went backstage after the show and met Vail and he took a pic with my wife and I. Basically, the live experience in no way reflects the recorded experience and I don't believe the man should be judged based on recordings only. Vail has shared quite a lot of info with me and he takes it to heart whenever Kenny G gets bashed. He actually called Pat Metheny and expressed his thoughts to him! I thought the whole purpose of being an artist is doing what they love to do? He's also an instrumental pop music artist and rightfully so, should not be lumped in the same category as many jazz artists mentioned. Same goes for Dave Koz and Boney James. Unfortunately, for those who don't care, a song like Songbird will make it into the Fake Book (if it's not there already) and will be considered a 'classic' beyond our lifetime.

Just my opinion.

I have been complaining for a few years about how no smooth jazz artists ever plays concerts anywhere near me. Yesterday I got an e-mail from Ticketmaster, which told me that Kenny G is playing in Lafayette, LA on October 4. This is only a 70 minute drive away, so we bought tickets. I sure hope the concert is good. I bought his live album yesterday, but I have not listened to it yet. Peace and good will.

Looking forward to hearing about the experience Mark, if you get a chance to post it...

Since my last post in this thread, I listened to Kenny G's live album, and I like it. Actually, for all practical purposes, it is the first time I have ever really heard him. It made me check into some of his other stuff and pay a visit to his web site. I admire how he left Arista because they wanted him to do an album of covers. I will probably do a download thing to get enough tunes to make one or two CD anthologies, just as I did with Fourplay and Boney James.

God willing, I will go to the concert and report back here. Peace and goodwill.

Well, I saw Kenny G last night. The concert was pretty good, and I am glad I went. He is a good showman, and the band was good. As far as concerts go, it was OK; I have seen much better and much worse. He played a wide variety of his music. My favorite tune was "Pick Up the Pieces." They played four tunes from his new album in a sort of "unpluged" format; I enjoyed that. Peace and goodwill.

Thanks for the report Mark -- couple questions -- was he still playing out of tune (sharp)? Or has he fixed that? I couldn't hear any out of tune notes on Sax-A-Loco when I gave it a spin recently.

When I saw him live earlier this year, I didn't hear any 'out of tune-ness' at all! I mean, if one wants to go to a concert just to clue in on something like that, why go at all? Where's the enjoyment in looking for a musicians failings?

I did not notice any playing out of tune, and I even thought about it during the concert. I confess that I do not have the best ear for that sort of thing, although I usually notice if someone I am playing with is out of tune.

I really enjoyed Sax-A-Loco when they played it at the concert. I actually like his latest CD. Peace and goodwill.

Actually DWbass, for me, a professional musician being able to play in tune is like a writer being able to create a novel using a reasonable amount of proper grammar and spelling, in my view. However, I personally wouldn't attend a concert JUST to point out a musician's weaknesses -- for me, this was a point of interest because we were talking about it earlier in this thread.

I actually like a lot of Kenny G's music, and have, on occasion, defended him since he's received a bad rap from many.

Yeah, I thought about it at the concert only because his playing out of tune had come up in this thread. Kenny played some serious sax Saturday night. I would have liked it better if his band had done the same on their respective instruments. Peace and goodwill.

That doesn't sound right. Everybody got a chance to solo and shine when I saw them. The percussionist got a nice long solo as did Vail Johnson. I think the guitarist was the only one who chilled. But remember, it's the Kenny G show and not the Kenny G band show.

Oh, I understand whose show it was and why it was that way. I only said I would have liked it better if the band had stetched out more during the tunes.

Yes, those guys all got their turn to play a solo. But that was the only thing the bass player did that was interesting. The guitar player had two or three solos durung the various tunes, but his solos were just a bunch of fast runs/bursts of notes that were not very melodic. To me a good concert has players who react to one another. It was OK; I'm just saying what it would have taken for me to like it more. The two people I went with enjoyed it thoroughly. Peace and goodwill.