OK, this is mostly for SpyroRipGuy, but anyone else who has input can jump in. In another post, SpyroRipGuy stated that the Bible was full of contradictions. I have read through the entire Bible, and have read most of it many times, and as of yet, I don't have anything I disagree with, or anything that contradicts itself. Sure, there's stuff I don't understand; who can fully understand God's word except God? Still, I don't see contradictions.

SpyroRipGuy, if you're up to it, please let me know what you see as contradictions. If possible, throw out a chapter and verse(s); if not, I can find stuff fairly well. This is not intended to be an attack on you (or anyone else, of any other religion) in the least, and I will make sure that my comments keep this as a discussion and not a debate or fight; I'm just curious to know what turns you off reading the Bible.

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Mike Chase
mike_intel@hotmail.com
My Home

Mike, maybe I should stay out of this, but I read the post you're referring to and I don't think Spyroripguy was inferring that he is turned off by reading the bible, just that HE has found contradiction. My father was a minister all my life (you should have witnessed the ruckus when I, a protestant married a catholic; finally eloped and married in Vegas). My dad passed 2 years ago my younger brother gave up his job and took over the congregation. I don't say that to establish credentials for myself, only to say that I am a believer and I, personally, leave biblical interpretation and opinion up to the reader and out of conversation.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from here. Your entry was well worded and not challenging; and this is not a challenge of any sort to you or anyone. Just my interpretation of what I read. I'll keep an eye on the thread. I'm interested in reading what others along with Spyroripguy has to say.

God Bless America!

Billy G

[This message has been edited by Billy G (edited September 17, 2001).]

My apologies to all for bad wording. I rephrase that to simply ask what contradictions people have found.

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Mike Chase
mike_intel@hotmail.com
My Home

Mike, I think much of the problem comes from the way that each person interpets what is in the Bible. My dad was an ordained Methodist Minster and I even entertained thoughts of following him. I was a Philosophy major with a religous studies minor in college. While all Christian demonations use the same Bible many come to different conclusions about what is actually in it. My feeling as always been that if what you take from your faith makes you a better person and does bring harm to others then it matters little as to your own beliefs and how they may differ from mine.

I will say that I was rather appalled at the Rev Jerry Falwell and the statements he made on the 700 club this week. He used this terrible tragedy to further his right wing agenda going as far as blaming gays, lesbins, right to lifers and the ACLU for what happend. He laid direct blame on the terrorists, but said that because of these groups God had in effect let us down in this time of crises. Not sure of your religious backround, but this is not the time for this kind of talk. My faith is not shaken, if anything is now stronger then ever before.

Dave, buddy, pal, friend....I totally 100% agree with you on Falwell, Robertson and their 700 Club idiots who made those statements the other day! When I heard all of that, man, was I FUMING! How dare they push thier idiotic right wing gibberish on a religious show in such a time here in America....I think they owe the American people a HUGE apology for saying those things in such a national show and so openly and dividing some of this nation even further, instead of trying to bring some sense and comfort to us all and to help others worship and grieve in a peaceful way. Made me lose any respect I may of had for any of them....just sad and blatantly preposterous! What's next, I wonder?

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Anita Bonita

Yeah, come on, SpyroRipGuy! I'm curious to see what kind of "contradictions" you come up with!
My guess is, maybe the religion you were raised in and/or practice doesn't quite agree with what the Bible says! Would be NO surprise to me!

Religion is such a tough topic as is the word of God.

My Dad was an Italian-Catholic, my Mom was a Japanese Shinto-Buddhist. Growing up, most of our neighbors were Jewish or Catholic. So, I figured out at a very young age that interpretation of God's word can be confusing. Especially when confronted with so much religion!!

I believe in God, although I don't know God's name. I leave the reading of the Bible and other religious writings to those who can find comfort and faith within.

It does make me upset when these ministers of faith use their pulpits and their intepretations of the "word" to turn us against each other. What you reported about the 700 club made me remember Matthew Shepard, the young man who was tortured and killed because he was gay. That minister that protested at his funeral really hurt that family.

[This message has been edited by Kat (edited September 17, 2001).]

Religion is a very touchy topic. There are so many diffent denominations, religions, belief systems and spiritual paths and people feel strongly about this issue, whether their own faith or sometimes how they (or their religion) feel about other peoples paths. Here you can feel strongly about what you believe and expound on it freely BUT attacking another persons belief system or the person is stepping out of bounds. This folder was well underway by the time I saw it because I was involved with our local candelight vigil..Now I am watching with much concern because it did mention an individual in the initial posting, but until this person was called out and their beliefs speculated on and then attacked based on that speculation I just let it roll. But that was uncalled for!
This is a controvesial subject, if you are going to discuss it please stick to discussing ideas and do not attack anyone or prolestyze. This is not the time, this is not the place. Please respect each other. and play nice


[This message has been edited by Shannon West (edited September 17, 2001).]

Dear Kat,
You said, "I believe in God, although I don't know God's name." Maybe I can help you out with that. The answer can be found in the Bible, the most widely published and distributed book in the history of mankind. You can find a copy in every single nation on earth, in almost every language. This has only come to pass through God's power, because many have tried to stop God's Word from being available to all. But the Bible has survived, and flourished, because God wants all men to come to know him.
As for His name, some translations have all but removed the precious name from the scriptures, inserting in place of it the word "LORD" in capital letters where the name used to be. But in the original Hebrew language, which the "Old Testament" was written in, God's name, "JEHOVAH" appears almost 7,000 times! And, in fact, most translations today still use that name in just a few places, such as Exodus 6:3 and Psalm 83:18, which reads, "...that men may know that you, WHOSE NAME IS JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth."
Hope this helps you. As far as the events that we see unfolding lately, they are just a continuation of events that Jesus spoke of as making up the sign of "the last days". (See Matthew chapter 24, Luke chapter 21, and also 2 Timothy 3:1-5).
Luke 21:26 describes the panic many would feel as they saw such events, "men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth", but verse 28 shows that those who put their trust in Jehovah God would have no reason to fear. It says, "But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near."
Through a sincere, honest-hearted study of the Bible, anyone can come to have the same assurance, because God "does not desire any to be destroyed, but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Shannon a clarifaction please, you said that you because concerned when an actual persons name came up. The only named here was that of the Rev. Falwell. He made his statements in a public forum with the clear intent of creating a reaction. Since this is public forum of sorts do we not have the same right to respond in disagreement?

Kat: I am a bit like you, I was raised as a Methodist as I said I was a preachers kid, but over the years have sort of done what many in India have done and included beliefs from other docturnes into my own belief system. The study of so many religions has shown me 1) that they all have something to offer and 2) while they may seem radically different on the surface, it is amazing how much we have in common.

Again basic philosophy for me is if it makes you a better person and BRINGS NO HARM TO OTHERS, I think that what ever religion a person may practice is great.

I meant that SpyroRipGuy was called out in the first posting, then again in a later posting. He has not posted here and may well choose not to. We certainly have no right to speculate on what his personal beliefs are and he doesn't have to share them with us and shouldn't be given a shout out to do so.
I was appalled by Falwells statement but not suprised, he has always been upfront about his beliefs. I remember Pat Buchanans "culture war" speech during the 92 Republican Convention. It scared me to death.
Seem to be a lot of preachers kids/grandkids hanging out. My Grandfather on my Moms side was a Methodist minister, My Grandfather on my dads side was a Baptist minister, my dad was a lay minister for the Methodist church (that means he preached and taught but did not graduate from a seminary and it wasn't his fulltime job).

[This message has been edited by Shannon West (edited September 17, 2001).]

Shannon's right, guys. Spyroripguy's comments were in another thread and should be addressed there.
As for the Bible containing contradictions. Does one scripture contradict another? Or is it simply a matter of varying interpretations of said scripture?
Acts 2:38, the Pentecostal doctrine: "Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ..."
The pastor (now bishop) of my former church believed that meant if you've been baptized in the name of "the father, the son and the holy ghost," you haven't been baptized.
However, in Matthew 28:19, Jesus says "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."
To agree with my former pastor would be to see a contradiction in those two verses. However, nowhere in the scripture does one overrule the other. In fact, my current pastor says Acts 2:38 was targeted toward a very specific group of people at that time and that it doesn't matter which words are uttered during baptism.
What do you guys think? Do the verses contradict? Or do interpretations contradict?

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Woody
jazzwriter23@yahoo.com

Mike's a brave boy in tackling this subject.

One basic problem with discussing contradictions in the Bible is that a person can make the Bible say anything he wants. We can be directed to a verse in Luke that tells us that "Judas went and hanged himself," then directed to Matthew where we are told to "go and do thou likewise." The Bible has been made to say that we "should go hang ourselves." Of course this is ridiculous. Yet it pinpoints a common problem about the so-called study of God's Word. It's words have been used to justify racism, segregation, etc. for years. Hitler thought he was doing the "work of the Lord" in the atrocities he carried out. How is this possible? In the South Bible texts were lifted out of their context and misapplied so that people could justify their desire to believe that blacks are a cursed race. The misuse of its words should be common knowledge by now. Unfortunately many have turned from using the Bible as a practical guide for life because of what's been done in the name of religion.

As to its supposed contradictions, they are found to be ridiculous most of the time. Once put back into their context they are not contradictions at all. Bertrand Russell once wrote a piece called "Why I Am Not A Christian" in which he cited hundreds of "contradictions" in the pages of the Bible. Sad to say, he was guilty of lifting his Scripture citations out-of-context almost entirely in the book's pages. Put back into their setting they are not found to be contradictions at all. Unfortunately, this kind of writing was required reading at my sister's college philosophy course.

I've always been amazed that so many of us claim belief in a God who created the physical universe yet have a problem accepting the idea that he could provide a book of guidelines and history that is accurate, practical and directs us about the correct way to live and worship.

Perhaps part of the problem as well is that many have focused on finding a religion that is "right for them." Perhaps that's why we live in a world that has more than 30,000 religious approaches to life. The biggest "contradiction" of all is the belief that he would approve of them all, that they'd be "different paths to the same place." It has always seemed to me that if we are to worship God, we should do so "the way he desires to be worshipped." So instead of trying to find "contradictions" or "escape clauses" in its pages, wouldn't it make more sense to see how it answers important, basic questions like "Why has God permitted suffering?" or "What is the theme of the Bible?" or "Is the Bible a practical guide in today's modern world?" or most important "What is the Kingdom of God under Christ?"

Whoops! Time to stop. Sorry for the long post and rhetoric.

Thank you all for your insights.

I try to live my life by being respectful and kind to others. I have attended many worship services of many religions through my friends. It is truly a touching thing to feel their faith and devotion. There is much to learn from each other.

Yesterday, I was waiting for my car to be fixed. A young man came in with his infant son and the whole waiting room was so captivated with this little child. The hope of the world rests within our children and how we teach them and guide them.

I believe the hope of the world rests within us all. Adults who are cannot treat themselves and each other with kindness and grace cannot hope to provide a loving environment in which to teach and guide their children. Many times I have seen people become captivated by an infant then go back to their old ways with the very next adult they encounter. We are all children of God so perhaps we should start treating adults as well as children with the same sense of kindness and awe.
I truly don't believe there is only one path/religion. I don't know if that is what is being implied. But today is Rosh Hoshana, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar..I am truly hoping that we can acknowlege other faiths that are not Christian even if they are not our chosen paths.

I'm back, and I have a lot to comment on, it looks like

Firstly, smjzzfan, you should not be taking what appears to be a more agressive stance against SpyroRipGuy. This is no place for negativity. I did not do anything to attack him; I simply asked him AND ANYONE ELSE WITH INPUT ON THE SUBJECT to explain his position, not so I could tear him apart, but so that I could be more aware of the challenges to my faith that exist (ie. I have heard many people say there are contradictions, and if anyone can provide me with examples of those, I will be able to learn more in attempting to defend my position).

Also for smjzzfan and everyone else, the original Bible doesn't use Jehovah as God's name. The original Hebrew word is Yahweh, often written without vowels, as Yhwh. The Greek version is Adonai. The word Jehovah was an English corruption; someone took the vowels from Adonai and combined them with the consonants from Yahweh. Note that the Y and J are interchangeable in either Hebrew or Greek (can't remember which, sorry ) as well as some of the vowels, hence the word Jehovah.

Woody: Thanks for turning this thread back to the original intention I don't really think the words matter, on the basis that there is one God with three parts: God the father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit. Proof of this can be found in that Deut. 6:5 says "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one" (or possibly One Lord instead of just one). Of course, if Jesus claimed to be, and was, God, that implies that God is one, but has more than one way to manifest himself. St. Patrick explained it well using the example of a clover: 3 lobes forming one plant. I don't think it really matters whether you are baptized in Jesus' name, or in the name of the father,son, and holy spirit; you're still being baptized into the same God. What you say is more an issue of denominational preference: some churches choose to use an immersion (full body underwater) baptism, and some will just pour or sprinkle water on your head. That's a preference that the church made up, and it's not worth being a point of division.

I totally agree with Phil too, and I do take time daily to read the Bible and seek for answers on the huge questions Phil proposed, as well as many others. I started this thread though to gain some insight into the ways that many people will choose to attack Christianity.

Shannon, I do not put down people of any religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything like that. At camp this summer, I had a chalet of 15-year-olds who thought gay jokes were funny and appropriate. Although I am definitely not gay myself, and think that the sexual act is wrong, I will not condemn anyone of the homosexual community, or stand by and give approval by my silence as my friends or people I know insult their fellow humans. I put a stop to the gay jokes at camp as soon as they started, and let my campers know how inappropriate they were being.

As for other religions, I too think that it is a gross misunderstanding in the new age philosophies that dominate western society that there is more than one path to God and that truth is all relative. It makes no logical sense that while the Bible talks of a God who wants peace and love for all men and to all men, that other religions have Gods of war, and spread the idea that to sacrifice oneself for one's religion earns that person a better place in heaven.

One of my closest male friends is Jewish, many other friends of mine are athiest, and even within my Christian friends, almost all of them, including my girlfriend, have grown up in different denominations. Although I hold to Jesus' claims that he is the only way to God, found in John 14:6, that doesn't stop me from talking to Dave, my Jewish friend, or others about their beliefs, in an effort to better understand their background. I can disagree with others, but still maintain a complete attitude of respect towards them, and discuss differences in a peaceable manner.

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Mike Chase
mike_intel@hotmail.com
My Home

Ok I have decided to post in here, perhaps to clear some things up. As Billy G said in his first post, I PERSONALLY have found some contradictions in the bible. And no I do not wish to take the time to discuss them with you all. There are my personal opinions and will stay as such. This may sound like I know nothing at all, but I believe in experience and that I only learn through experience. Personal experience. One day I may take back that they are contradictions, but until that day, I still firmly believe they are. And that is all you are doing. Believing.

If you must know, I am not Christain because I was not raised as such. Besides, God was never there for me when I was feeling down, God was not there to help when I was tempted to commit suicide. God wasn't there. So why the hell should I worship him? He hasn't done anything for me nor anything for the world we live in. He is just there, sitting back doing nothing, and expecting us to love him for it. That is why I am not a Christain. Does that make me a bad person? Some of you seem to think so. You know what? That is prejudice. I hate prejudice, it is the cause of all the worlds problems.

I appriciate all that Shannon has said, I really do. Attacking an individual is not just wrong, it is sad. Hating someone because of what they may or may not believe. That just saddens me. Why do you think we were attacked by terrorists? Sound familiar? Yes, they hate us because we believe in something different. Well everyone has the right to believe in something, even if it may not be what you believe in.

And I apologize for acting so rudely, but right off the bat I said "no offense" and I meant it. But no, you had to go and flame me for it. You really were rude and it pissed me off. So don't be surprised when I act in a pissed off manner.

That is all.

I was raised by Christian parents, and that alone makes me no more Christian than anyone else. To be a Christian, you have to believe in Jesus and accept the fact that he paid the price - death - for our sins.

Are non-Christians bad people? Yes, but just as much as any Christian is. People (myself included) often view different sins as having different weightings. If I were to kill someone with a shotgun or if I were to do something "small" like hurting their feelings by telling them to shut up when they were talking about something special to them, people would say that the murder was worse. In reality though, sin is sin, and while the consequences people give to different sins are different, it doesn't matter if we do one small thing wrong or many major things wrong; we're still guilty.

We also like to think that "good" people are people who do a lot of good things: giving to charities, showing kindness and love, comforting others, being generous. People are not bad people if they aren't Christians (and anyone who says otherwise in the name of Christianity really has no clue what they're talking about and hasn't read the Bible much); we're ultimately bad because we sin. There is no distinction between Christians and everyone else in that context.

How can that possibly cover for the sins we've done? Can I, by going to church or being a "good" person, do enough good works that some deity will be appeased and grant me eternal bliss instead of eternal punishment? If this is the case, how can we possibly know how good is good enough? If we try to balance out the good and bad, what are the weightings of each act we do? If we forget some sins we've done decades ago and we're not balanced, are we held responsible for not remembering?

Where was God when I developed tendonitis? (I play a lot of music and am also in computer science; the injuries have had a big impact on my life). Where was God when terrorists, thinking they would receive heaven by killing innocent people in America, comandeered and crashed four planes last week? Where was God in all the years of black slavery? Where was God when the Israelites were constantly attacked and exiled by enemy nations, or when they were captive in Israel? Where was God when tons of innocent people in Hiroshima were killed and many others died from the fallout when the US dropped an atomic bomb at the end of WW 2? Where was God when Jesus, his own son, hung on a cross, charged and condemned for crimes he didn't commit?

God is active in this world today, and always has been, but not in the way most people expect. God isn't a heavenly Santa Claus, waiting to hand out good gifts to anyone without any reason. He isn't a mass manipulator, twisting the people into worshipping him. God gave us free choice, to accept or reject him. If we accept him, we can and do receive from him. If we don't, God will gently call people until they respond, but he won't jump in and perform mass miracles.

A big issue in my life is that people, especially in high school, were friends with me only because of what I could do. If I could help them with their math work, if I was doing good solos in jazz band, if I was the accompanist for the choir, people would appreciate what I did. Only in the last couple years have I found friends who could appreciate me: people who took the time to understand my personality, and accept me as being me.

Did God have the power to stop the crashes last week? Yes. So why didn't he? I don't claim to be the definitive answer on this, but one small part of it is that if God prevented the crashes, some people would still not care, and many others would become half-hearted Christians, beliving in God because of his display of power. That's not what God wants. We need to love God because God is love, and he showed it by sending Jesus to rescue us from sins. It's exactly the same as hollywood actors and actresses marrying for money, and not because they care about the person. It doesn't work in Hollywod, and doesn't work with God.

God has power, and he is active. Why he doesn't choose to show his power more often is something people can't understand, but God is real, and God is active.

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Mike Chase
mjchase@uwaterloo.ca

A point to remember about man and his relationship with God is pointed out at Proverbs 19:3 where we are reminded that "man distorts his own way and then becomes enraged against Jehovah." We are often quick to blame our Creator for anything bad that happens and in turn want him to simply repair all the mistakes we make. But if we blame him for so many of our problems, who do we credit with the many gifts we have been given on the earth, often described by astronauts as "a jewel in space" when viewed from the moon or elsewhere? Romans 1:20 states that "God's invisible qualities are clearly seen" by examining the creation around us. This is important since we tend to take so much about life for granted.

I think it's much better to take this approach than to expect God to come to the rescue every time we mess things up by our actions. Do we really want him to be at our beck-and-call this way? Would he be worthy of worship?

Until we come to the realization that we weren't created to rule ourselves independently of our Creator, it won't matter how many forms of government or religion we try, success can only be limited when based on doing our own thing.

Man was created with the right stuff and Christianity doesn't have the market cornered on good people. The Apostle Paul at Romans 2:14 ponted out that there are people "who do by nature the things of God's law," that their own consciences bear witness as to the rightness or wrongness of their actions. This means that anywhere we go on earth we will find good, descent, law-abiding people.

Like others here, I'm not interested in hating other people or prejudging them. It would be the height of arrogance. Yet as others here, I believe that Christ was sent to earth to help us re-establish our relationship with the only true God whose primary motivation is for people to get life and for this earth to realize the original purpose for which it was created. There is no hatred in this belief and it's a shame that it would be taken in this manner.

Gandhi once commented that if we would apply the teachings that Christ expressed in the Sermon on the Mount, there would be no problem on earth that we could not solve. He was a Hindu and stated that while he loved Christ, he disliked Christians. It's tragic that the discussion of religion can't be conducted in a more civil way since it's really in our best interests to examine the most important questions that the Bible does provide answers for living and what the futue holds.

Sorry again for a long post.

Regardless of what faith you adhere to, I believe the proper reason to have God as part of your daily life is to make one feel good about themselves, give them inner peace and to create an awareness of how we should conduct ourselves and treat our fellow neighbor. The Santa Claus reference above and "bargaining" for good things to happen to you through prayer are the wrong reasons for believing in God. That's a self-centered, materialistic view. I don't feel that arbitrary acts of violence resulting in death are any factor of this equation. I think we are being tested on how we live our life, through whatever adversity, however long or difficult that life may be. When we are judged, hopefully we have sincerely tried to live our lives the way our God wanted us to live it and hopefully we will be in a better place. Sounds simplistic but it's what I believe.

Steve

"The proper reason to have God as part of your daily life" is because he DESERVES our worship, not to make OURSELVES feel good. As Solomon said, we must "Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
Wise words. The world would be a much better place if everyone lived by this standard.

This is why I don't like to talk about religion. You Christains only hear what you want to and only choose to pick certain aspects of what I said to talk about. You seemingly ignored everything I just said. In your minds all you see is some poor lost soul that needs your light. Some magical light that will make everything better.

You misunderstand what I am saying. Let me explain something. I have gone through a lot of **** in my life time, a lot more than any teenager should at this point in time. My dad has had cancer, I'm losing friends left and right to various things, and people are turning against me even though I show nothing but kindness towards them. A true friend would be there for me, talk me through all these hard times, make me remember how great life can be. A friend goes out of there way to make you smile when you are down. A friend asks you how you are doing and listens for a response. A friend is always there for you whenever you need them. And I do the same in return because I am a friend too. All this said, God is not my friend. He isn't there for me, and he never once talked me out of killing myself. He doesn't ask me how I have been, nor try and make me feel better. He is simply there somewhere (if at all) sitting around and watching us all go through hell. And so I treat him in the same manner. I just sit around and watch him. Sounds fair to me.

I have friends, really good friends, people that I love. And they are always there for me and I am always there for them. We help each other out as best we can (so don't say that I am selfish).

My point is that if I am to love and worship this god figure, he has to do something for me. It has to be a mutual friendship, otherwise he is just some parasite.
And once again you are trying to turn my faith. This time not so rudely, but still nonetheless. I am not trying to turn you away from your faith, so leave me alone in the same manner. I am buddist and proud of it. No one will change that.

SpiroRipGuy, I am really sorry you are going through all that. I truly hope it gets better. And I hope your father has a turn for the better.

Linda

It would seem to me that all religious belief systems are faced with a paradox. By design the members of each faith are called upon to give of themselves completly (not to do so would negate the whole concept of faith) and to see their religion as the one true faith. But if I see my faith the one and only then how can I give even the slightest conformation to any other faith? Does not even the allowance of any other faith to exist allow for the possibality that this second or third or any other faith has as much meanings as the one I have chosen? There is the paradox...as a devote religious man how do I stay true to my faith and as a reasonable loving human give greedence to other beliefs. Not to do so leads to hate and violence in the name of the God that we say we believe in.

For all of our Christian friends I will pose a couple of question for you to ponder.

1) are the things that Christ said and taught good things only becasue Christ said them or did Christ teach them because they were a universal good in and off themselves?

2) suppose for a moment that I am a member of society that has lived in isolation for all these eons and along the way I have developement a belief system that calls for all the ideals of Christianity without the belief in or the knowledge of God. I and the members of my society have developed as system of what we believe to be universal truths to govern our lives which just happend to be the exact same moral guidlines as laid out by Christianity. (again without the knowledge of the existance of any diety). In the eye's of God is this society any less meaningful then yours?

Dave, you have some really good questions.

1) If anyone claims that the Bible is absolute truth, it also follows that the concepts the Bible teaches - love for all, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, among others - are absolute truths. Therefore, those truths are good regardless of who says them. If someone very anti-Christian like Marilyn Manson (no offense to any Manson fans; I just picked the first name I could think of) were to say that violence is wrong, he is saying a good thing.

2) In your example, you already described God at work. People aren't going to develop Christian morals on their own unless God is at work. People have desires and instincts: wanting to put themselves first, greed, desires for sex, and many other similar instincts. For people to conciously choose, as a society, to override their desires in place of something better, it takes God, even though you wouldn't have had a direct communication from him.

THe one aspect I'm not sure of is that while the Bible teaches that salvation comes from Jesus and Jesus alone, your example is one where you couldn't have possibly known Jesus, yet you're still following what he commanded. I'm not sure what would happen in terms of salvation.

In reality though, there is no group of people in that position, and even if there was an isolated group that we just discovered now, you would find many things contradicting Christian morals. People aren't perfect, and they couldn't live up to the standard of Christianity (and neither can any Christian; we are forgiven, not perfect). If such a group as you describe existed, I would agree that it was just as meaningful as the Christian church, and hopefully moreso, as your group wouldn't have to deal with things like denominational conflict.

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Mike Chase
mjchase@uwaterloo.ca

>>... It would seem to me that all religious belief systems are faced with a paradox. ... But if I see my faith the one and only then how can I give even the slightest conformation to any other faith? ... There is the paradox...as a devoted religious man how do I stay true to my faith and as a reasonable loving human give greedence to other beliefs. Not to do so leads to hate and violence in the name of the God that we say we believe in. ...<<

Dave . . .
I think the paradox you propose exits because it was created by religion itself. Why don't we remove "religion" from the equation. In my understanding of man as a created being, when that occurred there was no "religion." We all come from a common ancestor who was "created in the image of God." Since God is a spirit being that can't mean that we look like him. But it more likely means that we were created with a measure of his qualities like our sense of love, justice, wisdom, etc. No matter where we go in the world today or how advanced or primitive a society may be, humans display this common "image," this morality and God-given conscience. It's why a mother of a starving child in a poor country will fight to her dying breath doing whatever she can to protect, feed and love her suffering child. It's why if you were in my home, you would likely intervene should I, in disciplining my child for a minor mistake, plunge his hand into a pot of hot, boiling water as a punishment. Such things violate and offend our moral sense. Of course we can point out that such atrocities do happen at times, but we know this is not characteristic of the vast majority of humans on this planet.

Man originally had a direct relationship with the one true God and there were no religions or different denominations. Let me ask you this. If the Greeks were still directing their worship toward the gods of mythology would you have encouraged us to have an ecumenical view of their faith? Also, when the Christian faith came to those lands and supplanted that form of worship, did it degrade or elevate the Greeks? What about those religions that have their adherents fashion an image out of a tree then fall down in worship of it?

I'm not sure how you arrive at hate and violence eminating from believing your faith is the true one. If your faith is leading you to the hatred of others this should automatically set off a moral signal that you better spend your time worshipping elsewhere. Most Christians are evangelistic and will witness to another person because of their love of mankind. It has nothing to do with the idea that "Ha! Ha! I'm right and you're wrong!"

I've said enough now on your initial paragraphs and since I'm not interested in giving you indigestion I will only make write a few things about your two questions.

>>...1) are the things that Christ said and taught good things only becasue Christ said them or did Christ teach them because they were a universal good in and off themselves? ...<<

Jesus knew that there is only one standard of right and wrong for us to live by. One time he was approached by a person who referred to him as "Good Teacher..." He replied "Why do you call me "good?" There is only one that is "good,"---God" If there is only one God, Dave, then Jesus' words were always offered with the reminder that they were not his words, but came from his heavenly Father. Again, we should be able to ask, what has this have to do with "religion?" It transcends "religion."

>>... 2) suppose for a moment that I am a member of society that has lived in isolation for all these eons and along the way I have developement a belief system that calls for all the ideals of Christianity without the belief in or the knowledge of God. I and the members of my society have developed as system of what we believe to be universal truths to govern our lives which just happend to be the exact same moral guidlines as laid out by Christianity. (again without the knowledge of the existance of any deity). In the eye's of God is this society any less meaningful then yours? ...<<

Since all humans have an inborn need to worship God, I would have to believe that should an evangelizer come upon this people and preach about God's Kingdom to them, many would see the connection and their way of life would be elevated.

I think you have to stop seeing negatives in witnessing about the Christian faith. Again at Matthew 5:44-48 Jesus said that we should "love our enemies and pray for those persecuting you." Why? "that you may prove yourselves sons of our Father who is in the heavens, since he makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous." His further explanation was "For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? If you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Do these words sound as if Christians are to "hate" others. To the contrary. I want to apologize for quoting some verses here as I know that many do not appreciate it. But you must understand that believing the Bible to be a divinely inspired book from our Creator, they are offered hopefully to eleviate some of the misconceptions ohters have about what it says.

[This message has been edited by Phil (edited September 21, 2001).]

Phil, let me clarify myself if I may. First of all I am not really looking for negitives in the Christian belief. Actually I think that it is a very good thing. I simply ask that all Christians have an uunderstanding of other faiths and allow for their existence. In reality, most do. This would be the same request that I would make of the members of all religious faiths. Second the presentation of the paradox is not a bad thing either. It is just a natural occurance and one that I feel most religions find ways to overcome. It is only the zelots of any faith that cannot find a way to be tollerant to others and that is what can and often does lead to violence. I would not begin to suggest that just because one is devote to his or her faith that they in trun are going to be naturally violent to others. In fact for most it is just the opposite. As for mans inbred need to worship a god...perhaps, we are always looking for ways to bring meaning and purpose in our lives and a belief system is usually the means to do that. I think that God presents himself in may ways and I am not prepared to place one system on higher ground then any other as this point. There will I suppose come a time when I will find out if I am right or wrong. In the meantime I will continue to live my life in mannor that will help to improve the quality of my life and those around me. Can't imanage God any god being terribly dissapointed with that plan of action.

Hi Dave . . .

I appreciate the response. opefully nothing that I'm saying to you is too offensive and I will only belabor a couple of points.

>>... As for man's inbred need to worship a god...perhaps, we are always looking for ways to bring meaning and purpose in our lives and a belief system is usually the means to do that. ...<<

I don't think our inbred need is to worship "a god." That need is to worship the only God. "Belief systems" arise because of this need and can be seen to exist in just about every human society. Since most reflect the efforts of its people or wise men trying to explain their existence and the meaning of life, there are generally many differences and distortions.

>>... I think that God presents himself in many ways and I am not prepared to place one system on higher ground then any other as this point ...<<

I don't have any problem with a reluctance to elevate one "belief system" system as being on a higher plane.

I do have a problem with the idea that the one God would manifest himself in different ways to different people. We would have to understand why he would do this for it to make any sense. In reading the Bible I've always understood that God is "not the author of confusion, but of peace." Wouldn't that be very confusing for humans?

Thanks very much Linda, I appriciate your concern. At least someone out there is more concerned with other people's feelings instead of what religion they follow.

And yes, religion is a faith. I follow one faith, you may follow another. The difference here was that I was not trying to convert anyone. Thank you.

To our friend Spyroripguy: I hope that you will understand that a natural element of the Christian faith is the attempt to convert others to what is believed to be the one true religion. You have chosen a different path and there is nothing wrong with that. From the tone of your post it would seem that life has not been easy. I truely hope that your path to enlightment will bring the inner peach that you seek.

Phil: no offense taken, I am enjoying the discussion even though we have some apparent differences. As to question about why would God manifest himself differently. If the goal of God is simply to have all people worship him (not in the sense of fellowship, but in the sense of master) then I suppose that confusion would follow if he were to manifest himself differently. But if the goal is have mankind come to an understanding of his place in the cosmos and to find inner peace that will allow for a better universe then is seems logical to me for this to take place.

I suppose it comes down a question of just much we believe this is all part of grand master plan or is it a matter of chaos trying to sort itself out. I opt for the latter. Different races, cultures with the ability to think, reason and choose would naturally take different paths and reach different conclusions. If there is one supream being and I do belief there is, it seems a natural, logical occurance for that being to manifest itself differently. Confusing for some...yes of course...but to others..enlightment.

>>... As to question about why would God manifest himself differently. If the goal of God is simply to have all people worship him (not in the sense of fellowship, but in the sense of master) then I suppose that confusion would follow if he were to manifest himself differently. But if the goal is (to) have mankind come to an understanding of his place in the cosmos and to find inner peace that will allow for a better universe then is seems logical to me for this to take place. ...<<

If God had brought man into existence simply so he could be worshipped, he might be guilty of narcissism, or excessive "self-love." And I doubt that he would have allowed so many "belief systems" to be directed to other deities if this was his goal. He would have created a race of humans driven by programmed instinct to achieve this end. Humans would not have been created with "free will." The evidence simply doesn't support such a conclusion in my opinion Dave.

Your logic also appears to imply that God created man and then left him on his own to sort things out. That sounds suspiciously like you almost agree with the "God is dead" theology to some degree. Do you?

>>...I suppose it comes down a question of just much we believe this is all part of grand master plan or is it a matter of chaos trying to sort itself out. I opt for the latter. Different races, cultures with the ability to think, reason and choose would naturally take different paths and reach different conclusions. If there is one supream being and I do belief there is, it seems a natural, logical occurance for that being to manifest itself differently. ...<<

What you are saying above might be true if all races and cultures came into existence independently of one another with no common connection. That needs to be clarified here, Dave. Is this what you believe?

Perhaps that is why I will never be Christain. One of my main goals in life is to understand everyone no matter how different they may seem or are. I am strongly against trying to turn people's faith and even more strongly against saying that I am right and you are wrong. I simply provide a basis for why I think the way I do and try and understand other peoples' way of thinking. It is my belief that if everyone tryed to be this understanding, then we would have no conflict in this world. Of course conflict would still exist, but at least we can understand why the conflict exists and try to work it out for the better. The one thing I cannot stand are ignorant people who have no wish to understand.

Hi Folks-
I haven't jumped in yet, but as a Christian I guess maybe I should. Nothing new in what I am going to say, and others here seem more clear in their logic, but here goes my 2 cents....
We were created to "know God"......he designed us to be in an eternal relationship with Him, which is a win-win for us.....we were created by a loving God, and saved by his sacrifice of his Son when we blew it through our mistakes and failures, and our soul goes on to be with him after our death. This life is Love 101, and our lives should be examples of Christ with all we meet; where we Christians screw ourselves up is when we fail to love and start judging and condemning others. Our public image is stained pretty badly due to that.
I have found through my 47 years of living (16 as a believer) that those who have loved me most and best were Christians, examples of people that failed, got up, and lived on in a power that was outside of themselves. And faced death with a peace I knew nothing of. Faced hard issues with a confidence I couldn't grasp. It's not about a "religion", it's a relationship. Far too many look at the Bible as a book of "do's and dont's" and try to literally apply it to their individual lives without thinking through what was really meant by the writers.If you study the Bible with the love of God toward his creation as a basic truth, it reads far more clearly, in my opinion- most "contradictions" (and yes, I've found some myself) don't change the underlying theme; He is pursuing us out of love for his creation and his desire to give us all good things, just like a loving Father should. We just don't realize how tough "good things" can be at times- they hurt awfully, but years later we can sometimes (but not always) see the good in it- it moves us closer to Him, and closer to the type of person he wants us to be. He's in the business of changing lives, and sometimes we are pretty thick skulled and just don't get it (see the 3 types of soil in Matthew 13 1-9) And if he truly has a purpose for my life, shouldn't I be willing to go through "training" (hard times) to find out what it is?
I watched my infant son die in my wife's arms, and I never thought that God could allow something so cruel. I had done all the right things, tried my best to follow his rules. Several years later I was stunned to think, hey, maybe God knew better what was right for my child than I did, and that it was about far more than I could understand. Shortly after that a man I hadn't met at our church had a similar thing happen to his family, and I had the opportunity to be someone who really understood what he was going through...we met for lunch etc for the next 3 years and worked together to get to a point of peace with our experiences. We realized if God is really God, we must trust in his goodness and give up trying to take control of our lives, which is futile anyway- life is totally uncontrollable, as you will find out, if you haven't already. The only thing you are given that you can truly control is your attitude. Are you going to be bitter, or trusting in a higher power? Frustrated by failure or seeing it as an opportunity to learn and grow? Not talking about self-deception here either- if it doesn't last, it isn't real. And, that may not be "the reason" God allowed it to happen to us both, but he used it in us for a purpose- we came closer to Him.

Spiroripguy, I admire your desire to be good and loving toward others, and I am sorry to hear about all the things that are going on in your world; it's truly sad, but all around us when we open our eyes to other's pains. You seem to be searching, and I won't try to "evangelize" you here....that's God's job. All I ask is that you give God a fair shake- I think he's the one that put that desire to know and be known (to love and be loved) in you. There are many tranlations of the Bible out there, find one that you are comfortable with and give it a serious read (I prefer the NIV)....if not all of it, then at least the first 4 books of the New Testament. Try to see the consistent love of a creator towards his creation behind what you read. Watch as he deals with folks who just don't get it, and does it with patience and love. Watch as he reveals what we believe to be a clear view of God himself. Hopefully you'll find the same thing I did- a reason to live.
As far as this being the only true religion, I have to go to what Christ said....."no man comes to the Father except through Me".(John 14:6). To the Jews of that day, who saw keeping the law as the way to God, (work-oriented) it was a provocative thing to say. He was offering a relationship with God, for those who would believe he was who he said he was. A gift of life, for a simple acceptance of truth. Again, not a religion (works) but a relationship (grace). And if Christ was who he said he was, why would he die for us, if there were other paths to God? Why would the 12 guys who stumbled around with him turn into world changing revolutionaries, all with the exact same story and purpose?
Please forgive my ramblings, it's been a strange day and I'm tired......but I do hope you can see why it matters to us what you think about God and Christ....not that we have all the answers, (we never will in this life,) but we feel we have something to offer to you because we believe he cares for you. Whether you choose to believe that or not is up to you.
Please let us know how thing go in your family during these rough times....hopefully we can encourage you, and not do more harm than good. Our intentions are (or should be at least) to show acceptance and understanding, whether you choose to believe in Christ or not.
If you have any questions about what I've said, please feel free to ask. The written word can be taken many ways, and I want to be sure we are on the same page.
Take Care
Tony Y

Spyroripguy, I understand what you're saying and I do wish there was something I could do or say to you to open your eyes to another possibility. This is not, I repeat, IS NOT an attemp to convert you. You said you don't believe because God was never there for you.
God does work in mysterious ways and just when you think he's not paying attention, there he is -- usually in the form of another human being, or maybe even an animal. You never know. And sometimes he's very inconspicuous.
But none of this is going to matter if you don't make up your mind that you want to give God a try. He won't come into your life to save you or anything as long as you think the way you do. And until you decide to open your mind and your heart that maybe there is something to Christianity, there's nothing any of us can say that will persuade you.
It starts with you, bud.
If you don't want to change, you don't have to worry about anyone trying to make you change because it won't happen.

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Woody
jazzwriter23@yahoo.com

Some nice thoughts here to start up the day from some of Magic Island's regulars.

It was pointed out to me a long time ago that we never "convert" anyone. The Bible says in John 6 that "no one comes to the Father unless HE draws him." On this subject Paul wrote at 1 Cor. 3 about the Christians of his day and their involvement in the ministry. He said that, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God kept making it grow." He likened Christians to being a "fellow-worker" with the only one who can "convert" anyone, our heavenly Father.

I've probably said a great deal too much on this subject in the last week or two and perhaps given some of you indigestion. I apologize for that. But understand that any of my posts have not been rendered for the purpose of "conversion." It seemed that some of us were exchanging ideas and our personal understanding of the role the Bible and Christianity occupies in the world today.

Sometimes "timing" of such discussions may not be the best, but truthfully, when tragedies like the WTC happen, such events normally stir in people's minds the need to find answers to questions that have long plagued their understanding. We've heard them repeated here numerous times in the form of "where was God?" or "why didn't he do something?" and so forth. The casual, everyday answers that are tossed out will never satisfy at such times. So I think it is the very best time to get into serious discussion.

Unfortunately, because of personal sensitivities combined with our own inability to express ourselves in writing so well, we misread the motive behind the words. When we experience a personal tragedy in our own lives such as the unexpected death of a loved one, mate, child and, yes, a fire fighter or policeman, the Bible encourages us to "go to the house of mourning" because at that time "the one alive should take it to his heart." It's at such times that we need to analyze what each of us are doing with our own lives. There is no better time to do this because as we follow the suggestion and attempt to return to our normal way of life, we will once again focus on our daily concerns.

So I've seen no attempt to "convert" here or "judge" anyone as unworthy. Have there been "challenges" about reasons? Of course. But I doubt that anyone here would want to see the leadership of this nation put in place a "no proselytizing" law (a la the Talaban). As John 3:16 affirms, God sent his Son motivated by his love for mankind. Christian witnessing carries the same motivation. It's why early Christians like Peter, when told to stop "witnessing" by the leaders of his day, simply informed them that it was a divine command and thus he "had to obey God as ruler rather than man."

[This message has been edited by Phil (edited September 25, 2001).]

The posts of the past week or so have been very interesting. While some of us may never come to a complete agreement, I think that there has been an attemmpt to reach an understanding of each other beliefs....and for the most part in a very positive way.

As I have gone through each of posts a time or too, I cannnot help but wonder if any of this discussion would have taken place without the events of September 11th? At any rate I have found it all to be enjoyable.

I made a comment about the expected need to cnvert by Christians. It would seem that some took this to be negitive comment. Not at all, if one truely believes in something strongly would it not be logical to try and bring that feeling to others?

Phil you comments have been well thought out and I for one have taken no offense though it is apparent that we have differences. I have taken the teachings that I received as the "Son of Preacher Man" and combined them with the philosophical training that I received in the works of Jean Paul Satre and other exenistential philosohers you feel that man is the result of the choices he makes and is in the end responsible for the result of those choices. Sarte for one had no room God, but others such as Soren Kierkengaard ( my senior thesis project) beleive that man is in effect his own creation (again back to the chioices and decisions we make as the result of free will) but that at some point man will stand alone face to face with God and that a Leap of Faith will and must take place. I could go on but I doubt the board would care for my 95 page thesis here!

In the end I think we probably beieve in the same God but have different, unique was of getting there. Is your way more right then mine? Not for me, but then is my way more right? Not for you and others.

Peace and understanding is what we should all strive for if so in the end the world will be a better place.

This may be redundant, but I read a half dozen reply's and had to throw in mine...

When you are seeking truth....God does and will speak truth to your heart. We shouldn't attempt to sum up God's plan for us, it will reveal itself in our lives as we live and have faith. I feel at times we try to interpret the Bible in ways that are conducive to our life styles. If something from the Bible contradicts our current situation we tend to reject or reinterpret it's meaning. I can't comprehend or explain everything about the Bible, but I do have hunger for the truth and have faith that Christ will lead me to it. Not everyone has access to the Bible, but everyone does and will have access to God. The relationship should take priority, and the Bible should serve as a guide....I don't always hear people emphasize that aspect of religion when discussing the Bible. Seek truth, and you won't be in the dark.

Basically, Christianity sums up in what you do with Jesus. Jesus claimed numerous times that He was God. There can be only three options.

1) He was crazy, and didn't know what he was talking about.
2) He was sadistic and evil, and led people astray. Many people have lost their lives while following him, and that loss has been a total waste.
3) He was telling the truth -> He is God

What you must decide for yourselves is which of those three Jesus was. Read the stories about Him in the Bible, and the accounts of Him in other non-Christian historians of the time (Jesus is mentioned, besides in Roman birth records, in works by Josephus and some other Roman historian; apologies for not remembering his name). Read about the way Jesus acted, the way he taught, and the way he lived, and decide whether he acted like he was crazy or not. Decide from his actions whether his desire for people to be loving and truthful was powerful enough that he couldn't possibly be a liar. And if you get that far, consider really carefully, given the evidence, which one of those three you think Jesus is.

Christianity is centered around Jesus. You can pick it apart looking for small technical details in the Old Testament; you can write books on Old Testament laws and practices. So what? You've missed the point of the whole Bible if you do that. Can we understand everything in it? No; there is a lot there that God knows, and has chosen not to fully reveal to us. If you get hung up on the technical details, you've missed everything. The question is, Jesus said he was God. What do you make of that? Do you accept or reject that claim?

No other religion allows you to receive salvation simply by beliving that you have been saved because you can't do it on your own. Is that humbling? Yes; our society is focused on the mindset that we are in control, and it's hard to realize that we're not. No other religion has a god who loves people because they are people and are his creation, no matter what they've done. Other religions tell you that you have to work to be with god; either be a good person, have good karma, good reincarnations, or whatever that may be. Jesus says, "Come to me, all you who weary and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest". Prophets in other religions, like Mohammed, claim to be prophets who had a revelation from god. Jesus came and said he was God.

The one thing you can't do is claim that Jesus was only a good teacher. A good teacher wouldn't claim that he was God. If someone with good teachings said that they were God, and that people could only be saved by following him/her, they've nullified everything. A good teacher can't claim to be god when they know they aren't. That either puts them in the position of liar or insane person, invalidating the rest of their teaching. Jesus could not be a man and claim to be God, and still have validity as a good teacher. He hasn't left that option open for us.

To put the Bible's theme in a couple sentences: Jesus died for all of us, to pay a debt that we couldn't possibly cover. What will you do with Jesus?

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Mike Chase
mjchase@uwaterloo.ca

Some pretty heavy stuff you're laying on us here Mike.

I'm interested in hearing your explanation of a basic thing. It is common to be told that Jesus came to "save us from our sins" and "gave his life for us." But it has to be asked: "Just why was his death a requirement for saving man from his sins?" Why couldn't he just have paid, say, a trillion dollars in exchange for our lives?

I will direct you to Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

A trillion dollars wouldn't cover it; why would the God who created this whole world and all the precious metals in it require money? It is a very North American thing to try and buy salvation, not God's thing.

I've heard it explained like this. God is holy and perfect. As such, he can't and won't tolerate sin. We, as sinners, have, through our own actions, put ourselves in a position where we can no longer be with God.

I don't see the idea of eternal seperation from God as a punishment of His, but rather as a consequence. Because of our sin, we have seperated ourselves from Him, and unless that changes, we can't be with Him. God isn't sitting up in heaven laughing as we condemn ourselves. It pains him to see each and every one of us end up seperated from Him eternally.

Jesus, in his death on the cross, took our sins upon himself. He died, paying the price, and God himself turned his back, and couldn't look on the sin that Jesus bore (Jesus said, while on the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). If we now accept the fact that Jesus took on himself a consequence we couldn't handle, then the record of sin we have is cleared, and we can then be with God in his holiness.

------------------
Mike Chase
mjchase@uwaterloo.ca

Looks like I found this topic a little too late....but since I'm a Christain, I think it is important I post on this.

Originally posted by Spyroripguy:

"If you must know, I am not Christain because I was not raised as such. Besides, God was never there for me when I was feeling down, God was not there to help when I was tempted to commit suicide. God wasn't there. So why the hell should I worship him? He hasn't done anything for me nor anything for the world we live in. He is just there, sitting back doing nothing, and expecting us to love him for it. That is why I am not a Christain. Does that make me a bad person? Some of you seem to think so. You know what? That is prejudice. I hate prejudice, it is the cause of all the worlds problems."

Spyro: God has been right by your side all the time. Even when you tried to commit suicide...he was right there. How do I know? Because you didn't commit suicide. I know that that sounds like a lot of BS, but it is the truth. If God wasn't there, you would have killed yourself. He stopped you from succeeding because he has bigger plans for your life.

Though I don't know what you have went through your entire life, all I can say is that God was there to help pull you through, though it felt like he wasn't there. God doesn't have to reveal himself to a person to prove that he is there. You have to take it on faith that he is there, watching over you.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE contact me at: WWJDBRI@aol.com with any questions you might have....or if you just want to talk. I'll be there for you and I'll help you out as best I can!

If you don't want to talk with me, that's ok. I understand. But, I WILL be praying for you....and I WILL have my entire church praying you!

I'm quite familiar with Romans 6:23 Mike. It explains the "consequences of sin" and the "gift of eternal life" that can be gained through Christ. My question though was "Why was Jesus' life required as a sacrifice to accomplish this?" What was the actual reason that God required his life to be laid down?

Perhaps reading 1 Timothy 2:5 & 6 will give you some idea what I'm driving at. What God required was not based on any arbitrary decision on his part. It was a requirement for a specific reason.

I probably shouldn't be posting right now because I am in a really upset/depressed mood right now but I want to anyway.

I was just told by one of you that God was there because I didn't commit suicide. That is such bull**** you don't even know it. I was the one that convinced myself that I shouldn't commit suicide, and it was my friends that I thought of that made me realize that I do have a life no matter how hard it is. Might I remind you that I am a buddhist and that I do not need your Christain enlightment. The Buddha knows more than you or even Jesus or your beloved God ever will. Do not rely on some holy figure that you cannot see or comprehend because you cannot help yourself when you rely on others. Instead rely on yourself because it is you, not Jesus that goes through all of these hardships. Jesus had his own hardships and he took care of them how he saw fit, you should do the same. Trust yourself, know yourself, rely on yourself. Take the eightfold path to enlightenment for it is you and only you that can reach personal nirvana. You may need Jesus' advice from time to time to help guide you, but remember that your understanding and morals are the ultimate matter to what is going on around you. As a buddhist, I oppose the existing forms of religious worship and renounce alliance on the popular gods. I work out my own salvation, the salvation to the middle path which is the ultimate goal. You mustn't worship this God because all he does is provide you with advice, the same advice that could come from a friend or anyone with a good heart. Do I worship my friends? No, but I respect them and I respect God but the hell I will worship the guy. You must understand that you don't need to be a Christain to be enlightened and as a Buddhist I believe that my path is more accurate than yours.

I am not trying to convert you but simply trying to point out where I am coming from. It seems that I have to be more and more forceful everytime I post something to you guys so that you will listen. I do not appriciate being treated as an inferior because I am not Christian. I know that you don't mean to be treating me as an inferior, but you try reading your posts from my point of view. You talk as if I am stupid/wrong for not being Christain (and don't say that you don't, as subconsious as it is, it is clearly hinted that you do).

That is all for now.

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Rippingtons nut, Spyro Gyra junkie, Keiko Matsui fanatic,
BUDDHIST AND PROUD OF IT!!!


[This message has been edited by Spyroripguy (edited September 28, 2001).]

Quoted from Spyroripguy: "Might I remind you that I am a buddhist and that I do not need your Christain enlightment."

*I did not know you were a Buddhist.

Spyroripguy: "I was just told by one of you that God was there because I didn't commit suicide. That is such bull**** you don't even know it."

*That was me who said that. To you, it may be bull****...but it is the truth. If you choose not to accept that...that is your decision...no one can make you change.

Spyroripguy: "I was the one that convinced myself that I shouldn't commit suicide, and it was my friends that I thought of that made me realize that I do have a life no matter how hard it is."

*Whether you want to believe it or not, God intervenned in your life at that moment and helped you to realise that what you were about to do was wrong. God works in mysterious ways...and in this case it seems that he has something better for you or you wouldn't be here right now.

Spryoripguy: "Do not rely on some holy figure that you cannot see or comprehend because you cannot help yourself when you rely on others."

*That, my friend, is called faith. As a Christain, I believe that God is real, does dwell in my heart, and does do miracles even though I cannot see him. (I do not worship an image of him because that is a sin...as said in the Ten Commandments: Thall shall not make unto thee any graven images.)

Spyroripguy: "You mustn't worship this God because all he does is provide you with advice, the same advice that could come from a friend or anyone with a good heart."

*No, I worship the true God because he gave me life, saved me from going to hell because I accpeted Jesus Christ into my heart, and because I strive to be closer to him in a personal relationship.

Spyroripguy: "I do not appriciate being treated as an inferior because I am not Christian. I know that you don't mean to be treating me as an inferior, but you try reading your posts from my point of view. You talk as if I am stupid/wrong for not being Christain (and don't say that you don't, as subconsious as it is, it is clearly hinted that you do)."

*No one trying to say that you are stupid/wrong for not being a Christain. And, no one should try and forcefully make you change your religion, either.


Also, I will continue to keep praying for you. And my church will also. In fact, if you are interested in knowing about it...here is their web page address: www.praisetabernacle.com

If you have questions, then use the info on that web page to contact my pastors and they will be more than happy to spend time with you over the phone, E-Mail, or regular mail and answer your questions.

What's important is not what religion you practice, but practicing the principles behind your religion. It's a personal choice whether or not you suscribe to a religion. I personally believe that if you study Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Taoism or even Christian Science closely, you'll find they share similar principles and follow the teachings of great masters. If Buddharma and Jesus Christ both deliver the same messages of faith, hope, guidance, strength, love, and acceptance what is the big source of disagreement?

My compliments to Jazz Man 2001!

I think you very succinctly stated the precepts of the Christian faith without condemning or questioning another's belief. Well done.

I would hope that Sproripguy sees the statements posted by you and others as an outpouring of love and concern over his situation, not an undermining of his own beliefs.

All Christians have been given the gift of eternal life. We simply believe it is our duty to share it with others.

This is certainly a heavy and sometimes controversial discussion. A most important discussion nontheless.

God's blessings to you all!

Doug

HA! You really think so do you?! Look at what he said!

"To you, it may be bull****...but it is the truth. If you choose not to accept that...that is your decision"

It's the TRUTH he says! I am WRONG!!!! See that?! Ooooo here's another one:

"Whether you want to believe it or not, God intervenned in your life at that moment"

Whether I believe it or not!!! Look at that, he IS forcing this bull on me!!! And then he closes it off with:

"No one trying to say that you are stupid/wrong for not being a Christain."

Do you have any idea what you just said to me?! Any idea at all?! Read what you said again and closely this time! God is there and its the truth whether you believe it or not..... but you aren't wrong!!!! What the hell dude? You so do not understand what you are talking about, I simply stated where I was coming from so that you could understand my point of view and so what do you do? You say I am wrong and then cover it up! I can't believe how ignorant some people can be! You just astound me! I am so shocked at you!

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Rippingtons nut, Spyro Gyra junkie, Keiko Matsui fanatic,
BUDDHIST AND PROUD OF IT!!!

[This message has been edited by Spyroripguy (edited September 29, 2001).]

Of all the comments made on this thread and the similer thread on uplifting topics, this by far makes the most sense of anything I have seen written thus far. We are begining to get rather bipolar here gang. I find it very confusing that given the events of the past couple of weeks and the unity that has come about in this country that we here cannot have more understanding about differing points of view. As we should expect there have been many differing view points expressed here and I would bet that there are many more that go unexpressed. We all know that many people just read posts on the boards and never post themselves. What must those of Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or any other faiths think of us now?

Perhaps we are not as unified as we claim we are?

I thought Ars Gratis Ars' statement was a breath of fresh air in a topic that was becoming an interesting and articulate discussion/sharing of thought and faith and then started moving toward dissention again.
At this point I need to restate something I stated in the folder I posted about controversial topics, which is that in a discussion about a topic that people feel strongly about (which this certainly is) you can present your feelings, express your beliefs but it is very unlikely that you will change anyone elses..and that if you found the discussion disturbing it would be best to "love it, bless it, and let it go" and not participate. The majority of the postings here have been very articulate and beautifully "within bounds" as far as presenting an individuals belief...however now it looks like individuals feel like they are being attacked and feel compelled to defend themselves by attacking back. This doesn't work. This is a subject that is best left to those who want to discuss it and those who feel violated by it need to step back and let those who want to discuss it freely do so.
Which is swaying the direction of the subject back to personalities rather than issues. As I said, this is isolated, most of you have been great and I have learned a lot and been given lots of perspectives to think about but I am asking the participants to please go back to the original intent and go by the original guidelines. I am getting requests to close the topic, not because it is a forum in which Christian participants are stating their beilefs and discussing their faith but because the language of several posts over the last day or so been inappropriate (the little ****s dont really mask a thing do they) and some are concerned that it is going to become a yelling match. I applaud the participants who have chosen to not feed the yelling match and again ask that anyone who is bothered by the content please just let it go and not continue to participate. It is not that I don't hear you or feel what you are saying. Its just not the right time, place, or method. I don't want to close the topic but should it come to that please know that it has nothing to do with the fact that it was Christian or Biblical. It will be because there was a secondary thread emerging that was inappropriate.

[This message has been edited by Shannon West (edited September 29, 2001).]

In reviewing my earlier post I see that I did mention two of the other posters by name. I guess I applauded one and somewhat chided the other.

It appears that I did indeed violate the groundrules of the BB.

My apologies to all. It is a facinating discussion for me, but I do think I will simply "bless it and let it go.

Jazz_Man: "To you, it may be bull****...but it is the truth. If you choose not to accept that...that is your decision"

Spyro: It's the TRUTH he says! I am WRONG!!!! See that?!

*In no way am I saying that you are wrong. I am only stating what I know to be the truth. And in the end...the truth is the truth, no matter what you believe.

Jazz_Man: "Whether you want to believe it or not, God intervenned in your life at that moment"

Spyro: Whether I believe it or not!!! Look at that, he IS forcing this bull on me!!!

*I am not forcing anything on you. I'll say it again; God DID intervenne in your life during one of your most desperate hours. Why? I don't know...but what I do know is that God did that because he has bigger plans for your life. What they are....again, I don't know.

Jazz_Man: "No one trying to say that you are stupid/wrong for not being a Christain."

Spyro: Do you have any idea what you just said to me?! Any idea at all?! Read what you said again and closely this time! God is there and its the truth whether you believe it or not..... but you aren't wrong!!!! What the hell dude? You so do not understand what you are talking about, I simply stated where I was coming from so that you could understand my point of view and so what do you do? You say I am wrong and then cover it up! I can't believe how ignorant some people can be! You just astound me! I am so shocked at you!

Yes, I do know what I said to you...and I don't have to read it a second time. God was there for you...and he will continue to be there for you.

*I know I do not have all the answers to your questions. But, if you want to talk to someone who knows more...then go to this web page: www.praisetabernacle.com

*You can get in contact with my church pastors via E-Mail, or even over the phone if you wish. They will be more than happy to answer your questions and listen to you.

*Also, I will continue to pray for you...and so will my entire church.

It is no use arguing with you! I am taking Shannon's advice and high-tailing it out of here!

BTW jazzwriter: You made me bloody my hand punching a wall because you made me so mad. I hope you are happy. I cannot believe how ignorant you are of what you are saying, "what I know to be truth" is by all means implying that I don't know what the truth is and therefore wrong. Is that clear enough for you? Even if it isn't I don't care. I posted in here to clear some things up about my point of view and some of you feel the need to throw your Christain preachings at me. Believe me, I know your side of the story, I've only heard it a gizillion times because you seem to say it more than you say hello. If you don't wish to accept my point of view, then fine.

Shannon: I apologize deeply for the cursing, but you don't know how much people like this piss me off! And besides, it's not like we are little children and have never heard cuss words before. In the real world people curse and so here I curse when I truly feel the need too. But I'm sorry I even posted here, I knew that deep down this would happen because people can't just accept other people's point of view. They can't and that is why we have wars and bombings and terrorism. So in a way I am to blame for all that is happened, I should never have posted here.

So once more, don't even try and talk to me because I am never coming back.

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Rippingtons nut, Spyro Gyra junkie, Keiko Matsui fanatic,
BUDDHIST AND PROUD OF IT!!!

[This message has been edited by Spyroripguy (edited September 30, 2001).]

Spiriripguy . . .

No one wants to see you not post anymore on the site. However, there are a few things that need to be said.

First, about the use of language. The moderator cautioned us about it and I believe she was primarily referring to your posts. I read how you "deeply apologized" in another message. But then you spent the rest of the "apology" paragraph justifying it because it was everyone else's fault for not accepting your "point of view." Remember when you asked another poster to re-read their message and what it was really saying? You need to do the same since in reality you did not really apologize.

Second. Your initial post on another thread resulted in this discussion subject. You did the very same thing when you said "No offense intended, but...." Then you accused the book so highly held by many of being contradictory. Did you expect those affected here to simply accept that as a "viewpoint?"

Third. When asked to explain why you made the statement, your answer was "No, I don't wish to discuss it!" or something to that effect. This is a "discussion" board not a place to make assertions without reasons.

Fourth. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that the Constitution of the United States was framed to let us believe anything we want. The Bill of Rights in protecting against a "state" religion was developed as a means of encouraging "discussion" and the "exchange of ideas." The objective was not to suppress discussion. Isn't it admirable that the framers included atheists, deists and no doubt a majority of Christians who protected against the ascendency of a state religion? There can be no arguement that if I want to believe that the moon is made out of green cheese I have that "right." However, if I share that belief with another person, they have the "right" to ask for an explanation. Refusing to supply a reason would mean I did not really have the "right" to raise the issue. That is not free-speech.

Fifth. This will be the most sensitive issue on this post. It relates to something one poster mentioned about the fact that in our interchanges here, we do not really know one another. That's true and I believe it resulted in the worst thing I've seen done on this site.

I'm referring to the attempt to lay "guilt-trips" on a bunch of the posters here. I believe that you allowed your dislike or possible hatred of "Christians" to not only misread their positive motives towards you, but resort to using the board the make many feel guilty about questioning you. Most tried to make amends without success.

I'm probably flirting with being banned from this site but I think this needed to be said. While many were exercising restraint to your sensitivities, when it bacame apparent that some supported your view you have continued to post on these subjects.

Please, no one has driven you away from this site. If you want to discuss your beliefs, fine. Do so. But be willing to ask questions and also to be questioned. that's what "discussion" is about.

[This message has been edited by Phil (edited September 30, 2001).]

Phil, as far as I know only two people have been banned from this site and both of them were banned not because of the content of their posts, but because they were posting under two or more screen names, one for their "regular" posts and other names for their abusive ones..
I don't know about the first one but I know the one who was banned last summer was not banned because of the content of the post which was ugly but not really out of bounds..he was banned because he was posting under 2 names and lied about it on the BBs and said (under his alterego screen name) that he had been lurking but was a new poster.
You have to work pretty hard to be ugly enough to get banned from the BBS...not just create controversy.

"BTW jazzwriter: You made me bloody my hand punching a wall because you made me so mad. I hope you are happy."

Fascinating. Here I sit in Greenville, Miss., having absolutely no idea where you are or what you look like. Yet without even trying, I forced your fist into a wall. Pretty powerful for a mere mortal, eh? Imagine what I could do if I hated you, as you seem to imply.
Look, Rip, I'm not your enemy. I merely pointed out that while your one comment about Bible scripture led to your point of view, your research on that matter was incomplete. I suggest you read further. If that is all it takes to "make" you injure yourself, it's no wonder you're unhappy.
You want to be treated like an intelligent, rational and ADULT human being. Fair enough.
But how mature can you be when your response to a typed message is to play knockout with an immovable object?
Explain to me, if you will, the logic in that.
No, it doesn't make me happy that you bled. In fact, it saddens me. But pity is the one thing you don't want, right? So any emotion I show is going to make you even angrier, right?


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Woody
jazzwriter23@yahoo.com