Well just back home from catching Boney James in Ft. Wayne and came away with a mixed reaction.

It seems to me that Boney represents the best and worst of what is smooth jazz today. When the band stuck to doing just instrumental songs they were hot. But they just had to include several songs that had vocals in them and then in my mind brought the band down. Now many in the crowd seem to like them, but not this guy. He would get me mad enough to tell my wife that I would never go to see another show and then come back two or three killer instrumentals and win me back.

While Larry Kimbell on bass does have a good voice the rest of the bunch were just average....as besides I did not pay my 80 bucks for two tickets to here him sing....I came to hear Boney play. Now when Larry broke into this terrific bass solo near the end of the show I went nuts. That is what Cjazz is all about, great up tembo tunes with extended solos by all band members....not watered down r&b vocals.

Overall I really enjoyed myself and would give Boney a B+....if he would leave those vocals back in the studio I rate him an A+.

Of course it did not help that as I pulling into the parking lot the local smooth jazz station WFJZ is playing Mariah Carey...that put me in a less then steller mood.

Well maybe its time for you to find another Sax man.

I've long ago stopped listening to his music. All of my Boney James CDs are now in a shoe box waiting to be sold as seconds.

Another thing would be to find new talent and give em a shot with their concerts and albums.

Joel, I do in fact try to support new talent as much as possible. We have a number of local or reginal talents that I catch when I can and buy cd's when I can as well.

I do not dislike Boney as much as some seem to do, I am just not sure of why he is taking the direction he does. Well let me take that back...I do understand a part of it. The audience in Ft. Wayne was a diverese group, an even mix of afro-american and white....young and old.....male and female. What I noticed was that most of those who seem to really get into the vocals pieces were afro-american. Stands to reason the tunes are r&b. So he is trying to appeal to that audience. Or at least I would assume so.

What I have never understood about the whole vocal thing is no one plays them on the radio and as far as I can tell no one seems to buy the cds for just for the vocals...so what is the purpose? Maybe some of our afro-american board members can shed some light on the whole thing. Do the addition of r&b style vocals to a basicly instruemental work make it more attractive?

But again Joel when Boney and his band stick to the instrumental songs that were great. I really enjoyed them. I am not against r&b songs in fact I have a sizeable colletion, just don't care for them on my jazz cd's.

My opinion..........When I buy a jazz cd or go to a jazz concert, I'm am not expecting to hear ANY vocal tunes at all!! Period!! That particular crowd may have just been an R&B loving crowd and may have just gone to the concert just to get out of the house and hear some live music. Probably not REAL jazz lovers. It happens. My experience at the Capital Jazz Fest (Sunday's show) was that Paul Taylor, Regina Belle and Kirk Whalum all played R&B/Funk style jazz and the crowd loved it and when the Rippingtons came on, the crowd wasn't quite as enthusiastic due to the different style of music although they 'Ripped' big time.

Okay, I am a real jazz lover, but I love jazz vocals, I do buy CD's for vocals. I think instrumentalists are forced to throw a vocal or two on their CD's and at some venues to try and attract some new listeners. I hate when they take a tired old song and let just anyone sing, but I enjoy a well-written song that is sung by someone with a beautiful voice who genuinely feels what he/she is singing. Like Michael Franks (like you all didn't know I would name him).

As for Boney, he is talented, but the last few times I've seen him, his shows are way too expensive and way too short. I think he's kind of in the Peter White, Rick Braun vein. They are wonderful musicians but they are overrated and played into the ground. Radio acts like there are no other musicians out there that can play the guitar, trumpet, or sax besides these guys.

I agree on the jazz vocal part, I have a separate section of my cd collection just for jazz vocals (NY voices, Diana Krall, etc).

But this summer's tours are jazz lite packages which barely disguise the R&B core.

As for Boney, I liked his show, but then it was free (Mohegan Sun) and 2 of my hometown friends play in his band. I was very happy to see them and I think I was caught up in that.

Dave I know where you're coming from, I felt much the same over the Dave Koz show this week. People tell me that Koz's show is about audience participation and everybody getting into it, but I guess I'm a dinosaur. I actually wanted to hear jazz not the greatest hits of James Ingram.

As a big contemporary jazz fan I agree that too much vocals can be a turn-off. When I heard the first track of Boney James "Ride" online I was glad I didn't buy it!! I have to admit I'm a little guilty myself for having some vocals on my albums, but at least I try very hard to come up with progressions that are a little different from the usual Dm9 A7/#9 with hip hop groove. I have no doubt the musicianship is great in the B. James band- it's the material that's boring - at least to me.
But apparently it sells well, doesn't it?

uh oh..this is long ..please don't flame..just scroll down if ya want...

When Trust came out I was one of the biggest advocates and crusaders behind that CD..I loved it and still do. There are a lot of Boney songs that I like on any given CD..he has done some killer songs. But when he gets into that Lite RnB wah wah sloooow groove stuff I hit the skip button. I thought he was great live with Rick Braun but the 4 times I have seen him solo he lost me..especially the first two when he was so smarmy with all the little chat about sex and romance and the posing and pouting onstage that I thought I was seeing Fabio with a sax. Like everyone else these days I take them on a song-by-song basis. Sometimes even one solid song on a CD is better than some of the "product" that comes out these days.

I thought it was very telling that Brian Soergel who is totally tied in to the "LA insider" smooth jazz community and being politically correct made this comment in his review of the new Euge Groove, which has a "chant vocal" but no pop/lite RnB full vocals

<>

It seems like Boney and Norman Brown..who both have CDs that are heavy with Lite vocals..are trying to "reimage" themselves as Lite RnB artists. Norman B.s press release even calls him a "smooth jazz/urban" artist. Whatever floats their boat..I don't like Lite music either instrumentals or vocals so snooze me and I'm outta here. But in the commercial context Soergel nailed it..the audience isn't out there. The vocals rarely get airplay and never cross over to A/C or Urban A/C to the point where they have any significant chart action (top 20 for over one week). The may get played on a 10pm-2am Quiet Storm show on an Urban A/C station but that is it.
Plus..the A/C formats are even more conservative with new music than Smooth Jazz believe it or not. You have to be a big name with a lot of money behind you to get a full time add on a pop station in these times..WB seems to be encouraging these vocals but even if they had the hundreds of thousands of bucks to get them added on influential radio stations are they up to the same quality level as the songs they are competing against for the few current slots in a radio format. IMO these guys are jeopardizing their credibility with the majority of their fans who come to them for instrumentals in order to play in an arena that is already crowded and highly competitive. And while growth and diversity are good they phase out doing what they do best and we lose some potentially wonderful music that is replaced by clone music. Also is this evolution..or merely accomodation?? AS for increasing sales look at your budget limitations adn the cost of CDs..if you want Lite vocals wouldnt you rather get 10-12 good ones and buy a cd by Phil Perry, Regina Belle, Will Downing or such where the songs have been selected and produced as a priority and with the vocalist in mind. Rather than these "gotta do a vocal" afterthought type vocals that clutter up otherwise really good CJazz and Smooth Jazz CDs.
O
One thing I have really noticed recently is that Smooth Jazz radio is scared of it's own music. Now I am afraid that effect is trickling down to the artists, who are also being scared away from playing a lot of the music they love to play and that their fans come to them for. As I have said before the music research the corporate stations have used to guide them away from instrumental music does not indicate what people really want to hear so I hope the artists aren't being guided down this path also on the basis of corrupt data.

Unbelievable...I'm sitting here reading this thread, and what should come up at random on my 300 CD player just now, but "Heaven", off Boney's "Ride"!! No kidding! (Wait, lemme go hit the "skip" button!) :p

I USED to be a really big fan of Boney's. He was one of the first jazz artists I ever saw in concert...thanks to free tickets given away by the jazz station we had at the time. It was during his "Backbone" tour, and I was blown away! I also saw him during his "Seduction" tour a couple years later, and it was great!

However, he seemed to start to go progressively toward the "sexy, silky, sultry" downslide, so that when "Sweet Thing" came out, I didn't even bother buying that one. (I have it NOW, but it had been out for years!)

Then, last September 7th, I went to his concert here in N.O., and I'm pretty sure I related to you guys how disappointed I was in that concert. No, the MUSIC wasn't bad...(He did NOT play anything from "Ride", it had not been released yet)...but they had the sound cranked up really, REALLY loud!!! Unbelievably LOUD! The thing is, nobody else seemed to mind, but I was freaking out! My eardrums throbbed for days! Oh, BTW, the crowd in there that night were mostly African-American, and were REALLY getting into it, loud or not!

Then, when Ride came out, I unfortunately went right out and bought a copy, but, boy, was I disappointed!! Ick!! Oh, alright, there are a FEW "OK" tunes...RPM and Grand Central, maybe, but nothing special...they sound like rehashes of some of his old "okay" stuff, but NOT the "great" stuff! And, the "bump & grind", "do me baby" (Borrowing from Shannon here!) theme of the rest of the CD...icky icky, yuck, YUCK!! :p

I did NOT go see him when he came again in the spring...I saved my money! :rolleyes:

Okay, 'nuff said!

I think Boney's "Something Inside" featuring Dave Hollister got into the top 20 urban A/C and "Ride" (featuring Jaheim) is sitting at 23 now. Both songs include vocals. I listen to everything and those songs sound just as good as anything else on the radio. Boney is a good musician and business man who is very in touch with music trends and his primary audience.

First internet message board critics say smooth jazz artists can't possibly write and produce vocal songs that can compete with those by Alicia Keys and gang. However, when sj artists meet and exceed expectations those same critics draw another line. "They can't get into the top 20!" Personally, I think that is complete BS because it is all marketing. What's is lite RnB anyway? I just want to hear good songs. When I hear someone yelling "Murda Inc, the world's most talented record label" on a Boney James CD, that's when I give up listening to music. For now, vocals are okay with me. I also like good instrumentals. There are only a few top 40 R&B producers making stand out music with their phat beats.

I'm with Shannon and Donna on this one, people. I liked Boney a lot when he first came out but I think it was our own Tony Windle aka Count JS who posted something about Boney's Ride when it came out, talking about "pimping himself out" and doing the gold chain thing. YECK! Sorry Boney, not into your gig you're doing now days. You totally lost me and until you get out of this, it's adios, baby! :rolleyes:

http://www.magicisland.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000508#000000

And people still went out and bought it.

I liked "After The Rain" and "Innocence" on Sweet Thing but that was the tackiest CD cover ever unless you're a 12 year old boy into sight gags.

OK heres a prediction. If "Ride" does really well Urban A/C the next Boney will either be all vocal or only 2-3 instrumentals. He's already said in interviews that he wants to do Urban A/C and this will write his ticket for him. HE'll still give SJ radio a song or 2 though.

As an African American, I can say that R&B vocals done by jazz artists is and isn't "for" the African-American audience.
ISN'T:
Most black people I know who like jazz tend to prefer the old style; contemporary instrumentalists (or recently deceased) like Grover Washington Jr., Miles Davis, anyone named Marsalis. We want jazz - period, not jazz that's compromised to attract a younger audience or to make the corporate suits happy.
IS:
Acts like Gerald Albright and Najee gained some popularity in the 90s, but not because of their jazz (if that's even what they played). They were just smooth enough to get noticed by programs like Soul Train and Showtime at the Apollo. Regardless of what you play, if you're seen on those shows, you will attract a large following among black teenagers and young adults.
Oddly, I've never seen Kirk Whalum, Kenny Garrett, Hiram Bullock or Nathan East on those programs. Likewise, I saw Boney James and Diana Krall several times on BET on Jazz, but never saw Albright or Najee on that show.
Go figure.
One thing about black people, and it's something I've fought all my life, is the idea in some families that music has to be "black" or "white." A lot of times, it doesn't matter what the sound is like. If my stepchildren see a white person on the cover, they won't listen to the CD.
I say stepchildren, because I guarantee you, if I had been there from the start, they'd be more open-minded. Yeah, peer pressure may eventually get to them, but they would be well-informed. Unfortunately, they are like a lot of other young black people — and this includes a number of friends I had in high school. They listen to what their peers listen to. And when I throw on a Steely Dan, Heart or Elton John, they frown. Funny how kids always cry about individuality when school uniforms are mentioned, but they all want to wear what their friends are wearing, listen to what their friends are listening to, etc.
This is not a one-size-fits-all answer, just my observations. Yet I think it's an obversation that the movers and shakers in the music industry are keying on.
Take Carlos Santana's "Supernatural."
Santana is a great musician who doesn't need to do anything to draw new fans. Yet that CD has rock, Brazilian rhythms, African rhythms and one borderline hip-hop tune. What is that, if not an effort to reach young people of varying ethnic groups?

my friend joe likes a boney james song, cant rmemeber which but it cant be a bad thing that he likes it.
he is a metal head, wierd goth freak.

Your "all black goth" friend is turning gray :rolleyes: ..are you sure its the jazzer Boney James and not some other rocker of the same name?

Maybe that icky cover of "ride" appealed to his dark side.

Umm. I liked "Ride" because it was danceable for me, I like to change up every now and then so I'm not in a musical rut. Today, I was listening to Train and Creed along with Curves Ahead and Elton John's Greatest Hits.

It is alarming to me how much Anita Baker, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston - even my old faves the Pet Shop Boys and Spandau Ballet - I hear on jazz stations, it's the Lite FM of the new millenium.

Remember how "video killed the radio star"?

Clear Channel's programming is brainwashing people into believing that these vocal tunes are Jazz Lite.

If I wanna hear vocals, I'll go see a vocalist such as Kurt Elling. I do expect to hear instrumental jazz when I go to see a show from someone like Boney or Koz.

The crowd was going crazy the other night with Koz. I like Dave's playing and appreciate his band a lot, they are great players. If I want audience participation, I guess I could attend the Friday night line dances in my local town park! It's just so gooey to watch a vocalist get down on his knees and sing to some lady in the audience.... I felt bad to even criticize it. But the crowd was screaming how much they dug it.

The following night I went to see Bamboo Forest, and I mentioned in a conversation that I had been there the night before for Koz. The guy in front of me overheard my remark and started carrying on about what a great show it was and asked me if I thought so, too. I did not want to offend him, so I just smiled and said it was good - no lie, I did like what I heard from Brian Culbertson & Norman Brown.

But I did notice when the guy walked out on Steve Reid's show. Guess it wasn't Lite enough... :rolleyes:

Hi YoungGun and all - Here is the quote from Oct 25, 2001 -
"... I think the Boney record sounds like Mr. {Paul} Brown sequenced a bunch of squishy phat weather channel themes, and Boney created a sensual, soothing sax overlay sound - a perfect companion for either the dentist's office, or while you are making love with your gold chained, lowered Mercedes driving smooth jazz love machine. Either way, it is not music - its groove, and I hope that trend goes away very quick."
It's fun to bring up our past thoughts when a similar subject orbits around our island.
~Crack, Boom - BANG! Happy 4th.

Ok let me jump back in here for a moment. When I started this whole thing I did not mean to imply that there is no place for vocals in jazz. There are some great singers out there in both the traditional range and on the contemporary side. There have been a number of contemporary jazz groups that make use of singers on a regular basis, like Incognito, Papirka Soul, Hioshima, and Jango. The difference here is that the singers are members of the band and the music they write fits in with the rest of the bands songs. In the case of Boney and others they are more of a throw in for no apparent reason. Boney does seem to get more airplay on urban a/c stations. I have heard his songs several times on our local outlets. Maybe that is why he is taking the music in that direction.

There are jazz players who sing well, Benson, Cooling, Oliver to name a few. Warren Hill on the other hand should stick to the sax. I think sometimes the marketing and media people are just afraid of promoting instrumental music.

The performance itself was pretty good and I admit to carrying a bias, but it worries me that if we see more of this over use of the vocal trend that the fate of contemporary instrumental music is doomed. While many enjoyed the songs I doubt that anyone would have gone away dissapointed if there had been no vocals.

I have to agree with the majority here.I was at Summerfest last night and after seeing Daryl Stuermer just rock the crowd, poor old Booney was doomed.I listened to one tune and left.Booney to me is the Peter White of Guitar and just to commercial.

Fishman

ROTFL, Tony! Thank you, my friend! I tried to find it and couldn't so glad you were more successful! But I think farther on in that thread, you were joking about getting some gold chains and pimping or something like that, either way.....such a crack up and much agreed with ya, kiddo! YECK! I'll pass! :rolleyes:

Tony..rotfl..Heres a visual..Tony pimpin it in gold chains and a shiny shirt and Chris Geith catching his hair on fire at next years Clear Channel Managers Meeting..of course you will each have to pay 50,000 bucks to do this. (it was 40k this year..add 10 for inflation)
Kat..I so agree with you re vocalists singing "baaayyyybbbeeee songs" to the "lady" in the audience. I am hypoglycemic in the first place and that much sugary goo would send me into space out and pass out mode faster than a kit kat washed down with a vanilla coke.

There is a lot of anti woman sentiment and objectification of women in hip hop..from little jabs to flat out violent misogany. And a lot of the lyrics in current RnB and hip hop hits comes down to "shut up and take your clothes off"..a lot of pressure for young women to know their place and stay there. I would hate to see this trickling into "our" music but with lyrics on the new Norman Brown about "satisfy me baby" and the objectification and of women in cover art I think we are going to get to go there just because some male musicians think it is the way to cross over..thats one thing I like about songs with no words..ya can't be objectified, put down, kept in your place or overromanticized if there are no words. On the other hand there are songs like Steve Olivers "Show You Love" that are totally cool, life affirming and romantic in a way that isn't sappy or cloying.

straight from the man himself.....

Matt: whihc boney james song did you like?
Joe: body language

there you go.