I'd like to get some opinions.... because I've been reading the threads....and paying attention. I haven't been saying much when boarders open new threads for topics which are already open....

would you like to keep the Contemporary Jazz forum as musical discussion forum and split "review" and "label" talk off into it's own forum?

Are there suggestions for keeping the forum more organized? Even I'm noticing that it's getting harder to find things.

I'll mention to Tony & D that the search function hasn't worked since we moved to the new servers in Spring, 2007.

Post away - interested in your ideas.

Kat,

I think a separate section for signings that we come across would be good.

But, then again, that would be self-serving to me.

All kidding aside, I think there's plenty of room for discussion on this matter.

It would be fun to talk about the different labels and what they are all up to.

From Peak to Heads Up to Narada to Artizen and Rendezvous (the new Big Five in my opinion) plus Trippin Records, Koch International and others like Larry Carlton's new 335 Music, it would be fun to have sort of like a tracker of future releases.

We'd have shorter discussion chains, but I think there would be much more substance to it. Like meat and potatoes as opposed to tofu (no offense to the tofu).

Those are my two bits.

How does everyone feel regarding this topic?

Signed with love,

Eric Viccaro
Peak Records' No. 1 fan!

Looking forward to Jessy J's debut "Tequila Moon" in March!

P.S. Just listened to the new Gerald Veasley track "Hear Now!" on "Your Move." I'm digging this sound!

As one who's on record as caring less about labels and more about the music and the artists who create it, I don't know that a thread for each label would be very productive. A fan of the Heads Up lineup may not read what's going on at Peak, although it may contain info we can all use.
We can pretty much expect the Concord family will be well represented, but how often do we hear about Verve, Reprise, etc.?
That's why I started the "New realeses, signings, etc." thread - in the apparently vain hope that everyone - including Eric and hbh - who had news to report would use that topic instead of starting a new one.
I've observed in reading message boards at All About Jazz, Contemporary Jazz and MySpace that members are becoming increasingly bothered by this practice.
Some examples of the kinds of comments I've seen:
- People start threads with no interest in discussing them, just so they can see their names in the "started by" column.
- Multiple threads about the same topic cause confusion, create clutter and make it more difficult for a member searching for a particular message to find it.
- It's a competition. One member gets some "insider" info about a new signing or upcoming release and just has to be the first one to say something. If the announcement is buried in an existing topic, other members might pay more attention to what was said than who said it.

Kat, I'll try to remember to share with you a copy of MySpace rules regarding this issue. I can't do it now, because I'm at work and these computers are blocked by Netgear. But I was looking at those the other day and thought we could adopt a few of them here.

Woody, I agree, I thought starting this thread may end the seemingly endless stream of "announcements" and such. And I'm guilty too, with Ken's stuff....but I think he's different, since he's a regular poster also.
Guess we'd have to discuss that.

I have no problem with us all using one thread, we just have to get the regulars on board with it.
And I like what you said about more music than labels...Verve sends me emails from time to time, and some of the artists there are still viable in my book. And there's several on Peak I could care less about, so let's keep it to existing and new artists/bands releases, regardless of label, and let's keep it in a single thread.

Agreed, folks??

Later
TonyY

I'm in agreement with Woody and Tony for the most part. I think Woody's initiative in starting a catchall thread for these announcements, as opposed to legit discussion about an album which would go its own thread, is a good idea. Keeps the front page lean and clean. (I don't think we need a separate section for this-- a thread should suffice and would probably be at the top more often than not anyway-- like the What jazz we're listening to thread)

I totally know the excitement of having the scoop but this thread idea can maybe help rein in that tendency to compete here. The thread would serve a good function for anyone wondering what is new without having to go all over the forums or use the limited search function.

Most forums have a sticky thread with guidelines and such, putting one together would be a fair thing to do. For example I've been wondering for ages if it's okay to describe our sites on the sigs instead of just posting a link, meanwhile some constantly point members to their site by starting threads. Some idea of what expectations are in general can only be a good thing.

Leslie,

Generally we have been ok with quotes in sigs - which can also be a description.... but the line that always gets crossed is the advertising, soliciting and marketing aspect.

Thanks to everyone who has responded/suggested so far. feedback and suggestions are welcome, so keep the comments going.

It's risky for me to comment so soon in the process, because I don't want anyone to think that I'm pressuring or trying to over-moderate. I just want to encourage the participation and try to address some of the underlying comments that I've been reading.
******************************

So the following is my opinion, not a moderation thing -

I personally am OK with once a month announcement threads - for things that our members work on and participate in - like the various review and monthly websites.

I looked at the thread collection of this forum on the first page - and it's a little cluttered and there's been little participation in the threads since most of them are newsy and announcement like in nature.

What do you all think about guidelines in which members can start a "newsy" type thread to gather up all their monthly stuff?

Obviously, if a CD comes out that someone is enthusiastic about - and someone posts, that's great - so we can all discuss the release.

Announcements for the sake of announcing - without participation - is a signal that people are no longer motivated to either read or participate.

That's a cool idea, Kat.

Sounds okay.

Let me give my two cents to this discussion. I am a regular poster and writer since 1999. I have posted in several boards, many of them don't exist anymore.

In 8 years of observation I came to the conclusion, that a board with many rules and preconceived threads is drying up. A board with a main thread and many so called clusters is lively and will be participated.

Keep in mind: On this bbs are less than 20 active users! We have lived on this bbs several years without handicap and constraint. Don't kill a running horse with "innovation".

Just curious, what would be considered "active"? One post per week minimum?

I've posted sporadically here for over 10 years and participation seems at about an alltime low. I found there to be much more diversity here many years ago. That diversity may have had most to do with the (previous) members but it seems to me this BBS has tunneled into more of a pop instrumental/smooth jazz board, the later which we seem to loathe so much which is ironic since the genre gets so much mileage here.

I'm in support of anything that would encourage an expansion of jazz types.

I'm kinda with hbh on this. Some of our (in the past) most active posters no longer post as much (and that includes me). I think what may help a bit is new or different BBS software. The search function doesn't work well either. I don't think there should be any added 'dedicated' threads. While some of Eric's and hbh's info can irritate some, I don't have a problem and sort of welcome the info. I do think Eric's could be toned down a bit though!

Yes, this. I was a lurker here as far back as 1999. Yes, it took me five years to join, but I was reading every day.

I agree that it would be great to see more people on here. It is only a few people here now. That's a bummer

And hbh, no one is talking about rewiring the place, just the possibility of having you plug your announcements into one easy-to-access thread, because you make so many. Wouldn't there be pluses for those who enjoy your reviews to be able to access them in one spot, instead of the spotty search function?

Gruentransfer, I agree with you, if we would have some more main threads. But I understand the suggestion in the way, that Contemporary Jazz General would have some main topics. In that case one cannot see new additions, which you can now see at the first glance.

I believe too many threads is not helpfull as I can now observe at the forum of www.contemporaryjazz.com. The participation is much lower as in the previous bbs. That is also the problem of a new software version.

Just another thought....if I recall waaaay back the only two bands that had their own forum topics were Ripps and SG. When a lurker dropping by sees PT and Acoustic Alchemy also as main forum topics it might tend to label or re-enforce this BBS as another smooth jazz site.

Certainly nothing against those two great artists, just an observation.

I'm not inclined to go with new rules about which thread people should post in.

I've been kind of disappointed when I've seen people "jump" on someone else who posted here by telling them they should have posted in a different thread. Especially in a forum that gets no more postings that this one does, I don't see what the big deal is. It may be someone's preference to have them grouped differently but someone else's not to. And I don't think it's worth risking embarrassing or intimidating people over when the idea is to have a place we can go to for fun/relaxation and to get info. For me it's just not that hard or confusing to see lots of separate threads. To wonder whether people are going to criticize you for where you posted could take the desire to post at all away from people, thus encouraging less participation which isn't what we need.

I'm not one who likes to keep switching bulletin board software just to add a bunch of new whiz bang features, especially if in the switch there is no migration causing valuable, searchable archives to be lost. I've been disappointed now several times when that happened at the other cjazz board many of us participate in. However, I do find the fact that the search no longer functions well on this board to be disappointing. If it could be fixed, I'd be happy staying with this UBB Classic software, but if not it might be worth considering a change?

My 2 cents worth for free!

Lynn

I think it's important to consider all opinions, so please keep the suggestions and opinions coming.

I sure would like to know more about what people consider "active." Yes, it's true that there are days when nobody posts anything. I assume that's because most of us have lives that don't revolve around MagicIsland 24/7. And I do check several times a day to see if anything new is posted. Whether there's a new message or not, it doesn't mean I'm going to respond every time.
Then I visit some other boards, and all I can do is shake my head. For every "lively" discussion, there seems to be two or three more that are just repeats of previous discussions. I'm not talking about an old topic that hadn't been discussed in three or four years, but a new one started within the same week. Example: One discussion group, within days, had three new topics under the headings: "Election 2008," "Primaries," and "Should a candidate's marital status matter?"
I seriously doubt all this redundancy has anything to do with how "active' a board is. It comes down to people either being too lazy to scroll down the list to see what's already being discussed, or they're ego-driven and want people to join their topics.
And some of these "active" forums are absolutely ridiculous. The chatterboxes, as I like to call them, don't really have anything to say. They just post messages so other people can know they're there. And many of those who do make comments are incredibly uninformed.
Frankly, I'd rather have an inactive board where when people do say something, it has something to do with the topic and is informative to at least some of us, than a board where people constantly post messages, about half of which are utter nonsense and many of the rest just repeat what's already been said.
Hbh, not to pick on you, but you said you see that "too many threads" cannot be helpful. Yet within one week, you've created four new announcement topics, and so far, no one has responded to any of them. I'm sorry, but I see absolutely no point in having a half-dozen or so new topics on the main page with "0" under the replies heading. As I type this, Contemporary Jazz General has five such threads.
The references to the weather and "dropping like flies" threads in Off Topic are spot-on. Imagine, instead of one topic for all of us to announce deaths of celebrities, sports figures, government leaders, etc., we had a new thread every time somebody died.
I'm not big on making announcements just so I can say "I told you first," but if we're going to announce new releases and signings, I see no reason why we can't all do it in one thread. That's why I created "New releases, singings, etc."
If people want to discuss the information within those announcements, great. If they don't, that's fine, too. Some people just want to read.
Each time a message is posted within that thread, it moves to the top of the list. That's called being active.
However, active threads get bumped down the list when new threads are created.
One discussion group has some rules that I'm sharing with Kat for her consideration. One rule says that redundant threads will be deleted and all deletions are final. I'd like to think that we're mature enough to be able to police ourselves without it coming to that. But if we can't or won't, the moderators here have my blessings.

Fair enough, those are good points.

The lack of traffic with the other site seems related to some house cleaning it appears got done after years of personality-driven shenanigans and infighting there, which I think is fair. I'm sure the board will hit its stride once people get used to the newness of everything. [After being chewed out via PM (by a supposedly respectable musician!) for daring to have an opinion and posting it back in those days, I lost my interest in being there with all the negativity.]

Lynn had good points too and maybe if the search function is modified at least everyone will be happy with that aspect.

Search should be working for a specific forum.... will let you know when it is working across all forums.

Here's a what if...
Could we add a couple forums? Like Fusion (to help separate us more from smooth anything) Or additional band forums (Chick Corea, Yellow Jackets, Ken Navarro, Pat Metheny, etc) and maybe for the sake of hbh and eric, et al, a New Releases and Reviews, or something like that.

It's a bit like a hard drive, sometimes it's good to create a new folder to help clean up the more overused areas.

I mean, isn't that why we did the Off Topic one? It seems to be more active most days than contemporary jazz or Rippingtons...I know that ebbs and flows with new releases, but....
anyway, just a thought.

I usually have my defaults for this bbs set to active topics in the last 20 days, so that usually keeps my screen space fairly clear. Searching for a topic before posting a new thread is a good idea, but I admit I don't like this search engine....it's painfully slow.

Anyway- whatever can be done to improve it without causing anyone undue expense, I'm with that.

Tony

I think there should be a separate topic for those who are posting links to reviews of specific CDs. I love it when a fan comes into a forum to share their thoughts about music that they are excited about and others go out and listen to it then comment on it. But linking reviews that are on other site gets cluttery and changes the vibe from real people interacting to a reviewer posting and a link then maybe one or two others commenting. If we have a separate topic for that then those of us who want to post a link to our reviews can do it there and the regular contemporary jazz folder can be more for real interactive sharing.

I'm not big on categories and sub categories because artists are starting to really get out of the category straitjacket. Radio is just one national network now and it is phasing out instrumentals so artists who play instrumentals won't have any reason to force their music into a format. Labels are pretty much a thing of the past so artists don't have labels telling them to tailor their music for radio. So artists will be able to cover more turf on a given project and start bringing back the elements that have been phased out over the last few years (fusion, world, funk, rock, etc)

I'm going to wait a couple more days for additional comments, then summarize what I think I'm hearing from everyone's suggestions.

Then based on that feedback - will ask Tony and D to make modifications if we - as a group - think it will work for us.

We did get the search fixed for today - but it's by forum, not across the BBS. Will inquire about the *sticky* thread.

for your consideration.... received this set of suggestions

In my beloved footballguys forums if people post threads in incorrect topics or start a new thread when there is already one in existence the postings are just moved to the other (original thread) rather than being deleted. Same with Turnstep (the fitness forum). I think that works better than deleting because moderators usually know which topics have been covered before but random visitors don't.

Hey guys, ladies...
I wanted you to know that I'm not out here lurking. Since we only have a limited number of regular posters here I figured somebody might be looking for a response from me so I want to be accounted for.

My input? Call me old fashion, but I have nothing to offer. Perhaps that doesn't help what you're trying to achieve here, but the way it is is fine with me. I enjoy, when I have the time to sit and "review and relax", going through everything top to bottom.

It was Paul Taylor that brought me to the Island back in 01. Since Kat is a whopping 11 digits older, I can shout:....hey old lady :p . Yuno I luv ya!

I think it's good that this is being tossed out, shared and ideas solicited from us. I'd say do what you think is best and try what you think may be in your best interest. I have no problem with offering candid opinions if asked (and even sometimes when not ). You have my support.

Shannon- that makes good sense, to have the moderators move the posts, but....do you guys have time for that?

Another thought I had (I'm dangerous this way...) is to broadcast an email to all the magicisland bbs members on record (excluding those who've been banished) with a simple survey, to ask what would bring them back to a state of some occasional activity, what changes would they like to see if any.
It does seem like it's dwindled down to the core group, which I will say is still quite strong and diverse, but more interaction with others could be a good thing, otherwise we could get ingrown and clique-ish.
Don't want that.

Anyway- just thinkin out loud.

TY

That is the question since people seem to have more on their plates now. Multiple jobs and stuff. I must be the only person on the planet who does not care if someone posts a topic similar to something posted several months back. Unless the previous topic is really recent or the new post is a flat out duplicate it nver bothered me. I feel like it would be discouragingly hard to have to filter thru several years worth of topics everytime something comes to mind that you'd like to post. And it feels disjoint to me to see a thread that was dropped in 2005 then pops up again in 2007. The older posts are just totally old news by then, and the people who wrote them may not even feel that way anymore.

I'm not sure the diminishing activity in this or any forum is something that can be fixed by modifications in forum structure, rules, or whatever. Times have just changed since these forums started up. People are more into blogging and social networking sites. When forums started up it was pretty much the only way for people to communicate on the internet. Now there are so many more ways to communicate online and via wireless. Forums have probably lost their glamour as anything more than a chance for small circles of people to stay in touch and share. Most of the forums I hit in other fields are slowing down a lot too.

The 2 times that I have moved a post - it has been at the suggestion of another boarder. Then the screeching and protesting would start.... so while the ability has been there, I really haven't moved anything since- because I don't have the time to deal with hurt feelings, explaining why I did it, etc.

Guidelines are simply guidelines. There is no desire to over-moderate.

BBS participation has changed over the past couple of years - and Shannon is on target with her remarks on social networking sites such as MySpace.

I'm a mod at another forum (not like this) and I move threads all the time. Not a big deal. Most folks just didn't know where to post and I helped put it in the right topic. Now I have had to do quite a bit of banning and got flack from it but hey, it comes with the territory.

I hear you Dave... but some of the e-mail and PM harassment that has happened on this board as the result of banning.... is more than I want to deal with anymore.

Likewise the movement of threads. I will from time to time ask a boarder to move the post himself or herself.

Hey Kat, I didn't want to imply that you need to 'deal with it' but more so I just wanted folks to know what mods sometimes deal with! I had one guy state that he knew how to find me and was gonna 'do me in' to put it mildly so I know where you're coming from!

no worries Dave, I knew what you meant...

I get many nice PMs from boarders, too.

It's just that some of the angry ones can become a bit difficult to ignore... does make me wary.

I want to be clear about this.
If it's an old topic that hasn't been discussed for say six months to a year, then by all means, members should be free to start a new one. It's no different than starting a new "What jazz are you listening to now?" or "Dropping like flies" every January.
The examples I mentioned earlier are specific to situations where a new topic was started, and duplicate topics were created within days.
That, we don't need.

I will say for the record that I have truly enjoyed Magic Island for years. I have come to rely on this site as a solid source for news, information, and opinion. Thanks to Kat, Shannon, Woody, Tony, and others too numerous to mention, for posts that are always worth reading.

In general I think grouping posts under fewer, more generalized headings is the way to go. I can’t see that discouraging participation and it would tend to cut down on the clutter.

All the best

Ken

my experience with thread /posts mergers are that they can be fidly and tedious. I moderate a category in a forum and it requires you to do a thorough read per thread / post.

what i do with duplicated topics is close or lock the most recent duplicate and refer posters to repost their thoughts to the original thread. I use to merge them but i can no longer be bothered plus the fact that a merged thread would most likely be out of synch with the flow of discussion of the original thread.

anyway thats just my observation.

this is what I've gathered from the responses:

1. Leave things alone - it's working for me

2. Contemporary Jazz should have several "running" threads for reviews and announcements

3. There should be a dedicated forum for reviews and announcements - to differentiate "fans" from those folks who have dedicated websites, blogs, publications about contemporary jazz and music

4. Update the guidelines for posting - no spamming, no duplicate threads, ability to move threads.

Did I miss anything? Please post your preference for 1,2,3,4. If I missed something, that could be an other category.... let me know.

Thanks

A hybrid of 2 and 4.
Running threads is the way to go. With or without discussion, everyone can post new announcements in one topic instead of creating a new one every time we get an e-mail about a signing or upcoming release.
Also, moderators should have the option of moving a comment to a more appropriate thread when necessary, and locking or deleting duplicate topics.

I'm with Woody.

Thanks, Leslie.

If used judiciously, the delete option can eliminate clutter without stifling conversation. People can still make announcements.
And when folks complain, "Why was my thread deleted?" we'll know who cares more about seeing their names in the Topic Starter column than about anyone actually getting any information from their posts.

Frankly, I've always felt this site has been managed in a professional manner. My posts are usually found in a few of the categories here and believe the key to any board's having stimulating discussion is interesting thread topics [a no brainer].

And that probably explains frequent periods with little discussion materializing. Regardless, the site is stil one of my favorites. Like Woody offered, our lives do not revolve around any website.

Just keep up the good work.

I'm with Woody on this. I've seen topics where there was a gap of 2 years between posts and it's really disjoint and hard to follow..the earlier comments are either outdated or out of synch by then.

Ditto on the thread issue.

Thanks,

Eric Viccaro
Peak Records' No. 1 fan

Jessy J — Congratulations on your first top-30 hit in Radio and Records Magazine, "Tequila Moon." Album hits stores in March!

we've been discussing the suggestions...

1. We will post some simple guidelines. Mostly to re-iterate the policies which everyone agreed to when they registered - no advertising, no pyramid schemes, no harassment, etc.

we will also post suggestions - no spamming is a good example. Also how to search and to use other BBS functions, such as quoting and how to post images.

2. We will open a forum dedicated to Contemporary Jazz Reviews and News from those of us who have publications, reviews, websites - generally anyone who has taken their interest in c-jazz beyond super fan. This will be a place where we can all go to look up reviews and news.

The Contemporary Jazz Forum should be dedicated to word of mouth and buzz from interested fans who want to discuss their impressions of music. This is grassroots buzz from people who are passionate about the music and want to share their personal excitement.

Of course, when they read a review - they are welcome to post in the review threads.

Watch for the new forum and guidelines over the next couple of days.

thanks Kat-

I think the separate forum for the new releases will help de-clutter the cjazz forum, while still allowing a place for the promotion of the artists we like to follow.

Works for me, so long as it's clear what the rules are, and everybody here agrees to the terms and conditions.

Thanks for the time and hard work.

later
TY

I moved some of the January (and previous) posts into the new forum.

yeah, I can tell Kat- thanks!

You'll probably have to continue to do it until we're all "trained" to go to the other forum, but this is definitely a step in the right direction.

Later
TY

Wow, I spend a few days off and y'all remake the place.
Good job!