Okay, hang me if I am way off base here.

Jay talks about Weather Report being big influences on them. Sometimes it irks me that just because a release was one of the first to pave the way ("Heavy Weather") that it is a classic, masterpiece by which all others are measured. Sure it's good but I don't understand how it's on the pedestal its on. Forget about the musicians (Wayne, Jaco, Joe, etc.) I'm talking about the music. I'd say a release like "Three Wishes" blows "Heavy Weather" away in every sense and should be on the same or higher pedestal. Also, listen to "A Remark You Made" and it reminds me a lot of "Harbor Nights" only I feel the later to be a better song.

So where am I going wrong?

SteveH . . .

I don't beieve it has anything to do with you or anyone else being "wrong" in your feelings. I also prefer Spyro's music, though I also enjoy WR's.

But we're talking about a different time period (the early '70s prior to SG) where WR's music represented something truly new. Combine that with the presence of guys like Wayne Shorter (of Miles' Davis' group fame), Joe Zawinul (the recognized master of the Fender rhodes keyboard and a Miles alumnus as well) and Jaco Pastorious (who defined or re-defined the use of the electric bass in jazz) and you have some pretty memorable ingredients for a band.

Truthfully, I have never been all that enthused about a great deal of the stuff these guys put out. But I also realize that this is a minority opinion and that Weather Report's music hit all the right responses with a vast majority of jazz musicians and critics alike.

Another factor that I believe comes into play is that a lot of jazz musicians were totally turned off by avante-gard and/or free jazz movements during those years and began to exchange ideas and experiments with rock musicians.

We hear so much about how Miles Davis invented fusion and many sing the praises of his "Bitches Brew" release as monumental. I've listened to this 2-CD set remastered recording many times and I just don't see it. The release does absolutely nothing for me. The same is true with a lot of Mahavishnu's (John McLaughlin's band) stuff. I prefer Miles' straight-ahead jazz offerings much more and McLaughlin's later stuff after Mahavishnu. However, I'm sure that many a jazz aficionado would shudder in disbelief reading these words.

The bottom line is that frankly, I don't give a hoot. I'm sure both of us like what we like for specific reasons and it's a waste of time hassling over feelings about this stuff. I recognize that Spyro Gyra came later than WR, but what they've brought to contemporary music, Whether you want to call it fusion, instrumental pop, contemporary jazz or, heaven forbid, smooth jazz, their music represents something very important to what I enjoy in music and jazz.

This is a great thread though and it would be nice to hear further expression from others here.

I'm with you, Phil.
I got two of the acclaimed jazz master, remastered sets earlier this year, one of them being Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" another being a Miles Davis set (shows you how much I got into it, can't even tell you which one).
Granted, I have an acquired taste for this style of jazz and, whether I like the songs or not, I definitely have an apprecition for (and in some cases amazed by) what they accomplished.
Still, given a choice, I would not pick this music over Spyro Gyra, the Yellowjackets, Fourplay or The Rippingtons.
As for paying homage to Heavy Weather, I think it's a good album though not necessarily a great one. The thing is timing. Birdland has to be the most often-covered jazz tune from that era, and lots of jazz people love Teen Town (speaking of which, I have a secret that I'll share with you guys ... later this week, hopefully ... some of you may already know). So I can see how a jazz group who released its first album in 1978 would point to a fusion album released a year earlier as being an influence, which is not the same thing as saying the earlier album is a classic masterpiece by which all other things are measured.
A subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

SteveH, no one is wrong, if i had to pick I think i would choose WR's and Mahavishnu's music over most of SG's music (but i am young and stupid) just because thats what I like, and mabye when jay talks about WR he is thinking about the early WR, ("Sweetnighter" and "I Sing The Body Electric" etc.) thats just a thought

Loomis

No, Phil I guess you are right. It's all what you prefer. I suppose we could all find tons of examples of bands that sound similar to (and many times better) than the supposed originators.
And then theres also the "living off a reputation" syndrome which will always be prevalent. To me, the under-rated Gary Willis sounds like Jaco. Check out his playing on "Got Tuh" from Primal Tracks...very similar to WR "Teen Town."

So Jay, Scott, Tom...if you're reading this, while WR may have been big influences, Wayne S., Jaco P. and Joe Z. got nothing on you...your music and chemistry are far superior. Of course this is only my amateur opinion.

I normally don’t get up to this forum, in fact in the couple of three years I’ve been posting on MagicIsland this may be my first time posting in the Spyro Gyra forum. In part because of what was mentioned earlier about things being a matter of what you like. While I can listen to SG and have been to several of their concerts (in fact I plan on seeing them again in a couple of weeks at the Keswick in PA) I generally have a luke warm response to their music. Weather Report or the Mahavishnu Orchestra is another story. I’m old enough to vividly remember the times of Bitches Brew and how it was so radically different than what Miles had been doing and it happened so fast that many were turned off. Then came Weather Report and Mahavishnu Orchestra. They sort of cleared a lot of things up in regards to the fusion sound. In regards to Weather Report, they found commercial success with ‘Heavy Weather’ but I’d have to say that it was ‘Boogie Woogie Waltz’ from the Sweetnighter album (no cds back then), which more clearly defines the Weather Report sound. If you were able to see the original Mahavishnu Orchestra (McLaughlin, Cobham, Laird, Hammer & Goodman) or one of the various Weather Report groups (preferably one with Jaco on bass) then explaining why they influence the way they do is not necessary. In my opinion there just aren’t (weren’t) any better ‘live’ performing groups than these two (well maybe the ‘Live In LA’ version of the Rippingtons come very close). There was such a flow to their music. With Weather Report it was in the ‘groove’, with Mahvishnu Orchestra it was in the drive of their sound and the individual virtuosity of the musicians. Any how just my two cent rant on my hands down two favorite groups ever.

Good post. "Black Market" is the other one I always hear good remarks about. Might have to pick it up.

Steve, I got a "remastered" copy of Black Market last summer, and I like it a lot better than Heavy Weather. Gotta love Jaco on "Barbary Coast"

Black Market is a superb release. Features Chester Thompson on drums who later went on to fame and fortune as drummer for Genesis when Phil Collins took over lead vocal duties. In addition to those previously mentioned my other favorite WR releases are Mysterious Traveler and Tale Spinnin (Man In The Green Shirt).

Funny enough, my experience with Weather Report has been similar...I picked up "Mysterious Traveller" around the same time I was just getting into bands like Spyro Gyra, Pat Metheny Group, and Jean Luc Ponty. I listened, and TRIED to like it, but it didn't impress me much.

I have the same thing to say about Miles and Mahi Orch....though I will say that some of the MahOrch stuff does blow me away....just not a near high enough per centage of hit to miss ratio for me to want to pick up the entire catalog.

I do love "Black Market" as performed by Jay Beckenstein and his studio compliment of all stars on Jay's side project, "Eye Contact". That one is one of my favorites on a vastly under rated and vastly under exposed release.

But, hey, remember, even Spyro Gyra and Pat Metheny stumble...I disliked the vocal tracks on "Dreams Beyond Control" "Love And Other Obsessions" and most of the vocal stuff on "Got The Magic". "20/20" had some tunes that were just so-so.

And Pat Metheny....his Song X, and Zero Tolerance For Silence"....well, I would tell Pat to his face that most of his stuff has a high "wow" factor to it....I'd also have to state that the "Emperor Has No Clothes" reguarding "X" and "Zero".

Peace!
Paul

Ahhh, the infamous SG vocals - an experiment that mercifully died a quick and quiet death, although I really love Patterns in the Rain and find Send Me One Line palatable (even if only because Jay blows me away with his sax solo). Those other ones, mainly the two on L&OO, it's worth repeating, aren't as good because Spyro Gyra is more or less reduced to being a backup band - I wouldn't know they were there if I didn't know it was their CD I was playing. At least on Patterns, there's plenty of Dave, Jay and Joel (and the raggae-ish rhythm doesn't hurt).

Actually...I did grow to like "Springtime Laughter" with Basia taking the vocal. Go figure.

Peace!
Paul

Hey, Paul, even if that song had been super sappy, just having Basia on it instead of some renowned R&B diva would have made it all right.